How could you ever prove preference of your idea of it above mine?
Everybody has his own idea of it.
The truth which has the highest degree of proof is the one whe can see.
The one you are preaching is one that we don't see; so how can you ever prove it?
Proof is in the pudding,and in eating the pudding,(digesting self-realizational upwellings
from your own psyche)you have it all within YOU,David,we do indeed all have our own
ideas,thats why at depth they are much the same?? It is only on the very surface where
there "appears" to be so much diversity of opinion!
I am not preaching my friend,just suggesting that by looking within you will find yourself.
You know who that is David? Really know I mean!
regards michael.
__________________ Humilty,coupled with boldness,surprises truth to
reveal herself?
Science has proven some ideas which reach to the border of the universe.
What's beyond is not known for sure; we can only philosophize about it.
We all have our own ideas (that's including me); I am a truth-searcher, and yes of course there is a lot I don't know; that's why my interests brought me here.
We can claim ideas (in my case just to know more and to learn), but I don't like when someone demands it (only if we can really prove it).
I agree with your post,
I don't have anything against any belief system, but I just don't like when someone demands it; unless someone can prove it, I think it's better noone demands it; my opinion is it's too important for free will.
Thanks for the understanding.
I think I am me, and someone else is someone else; nobody understands better him/herself or his/her life than the person him/herself.
((my image of hereafter is it would be one where everbody (automatically) understands everybody, where nobody dies and where everybody is present for all eternity; and having absolute freedom)).
((Could that really happen? I don't know. That's just what I only hope would happen; but it surely doesn't happen on this planet)).
((That's because our dreams ( which are in relation to our experience) often crash into eachother (sometimes even deadly) )).
Science has proven some ideas which reach to the border of the universe.
What's beyond is not known for sure; we can only philosophize about it.
We all have our own ideas (that's including me); I am a truth-searcher, and yes of course there is a lot I don't know; that's why my interests brought me here.
We can claim ideas (in my case just to know more and to learn), but I think we'ld better don't demand them (only if we can really prove them).
I agree with your post,
I don't have anything against any belief system, but I just don't like when someone demands it; unless someone can prove it, I think it's better it's not demanded; in my opinion it's too important for free will.
That is very true,David,I agree,however,(and there is always,an however)study the term
"free-will" to exorcise the will,"There is always a COST",there are no "free lunches" in reality,all motion has a price-period!It is not FREE?
regards michael.
__________________ Humilty,coupled with boldness,surprises truth to
reveal herself?
A alien from another planet with no supernatural beliefs arrived on Earth and asked “What is this God that some people speak of? What’s He like? What should I believe? People say He’s all around, but invisible. Is this myth or fact?”
“Well,” a TOE forum member replied, role the dice and take your pick of one or more of positions that humans have arbitrarily taken, and a few scientific ones by those educated in the natural sciences:
00 God can perform any miracle whatsoever and does so often, but it is never anything obvious like healing an amputee by growing back an arm or a leg.
01 God does not exist and was made up out of humans’ wishes for an afterlife and/or is derivative of the child-parent relationship.
02 God really exists as defined by a certain religion, which happens to be mine, but not as He is defined by other religions.
03 God once lived on the moon, then on the sun, then on Mt. Olympus, but now lives in Heaven.
04 Jesus is divine, being the son of God, for we were there at the time. (Christian)
05 Jesus is not the son of God, for we were there at the time. (Jewish)
06 Mohammed was the prophet of God, not Jesus, for he said so. (Islamic)
07 The Bible is the word of God and is literally true. The Earth was made in 6 days is only 5000 years old.
08 The Bible is an amalgamation of of old Jewish legends and the history of some of tribes moving around. It has a lot of good poetry, but it was made by mere humans, not God.
09 Mary was the virgin mother of God (Christian).
10 Mary is not recognized as special (Lutheran).
11 Jesus spent a lot of time in America but no other religions know about this (Mormon).
12 God created reality because it could not make itself and it could not always have had the potential to exist and it could not have been here forever. It is ridiculous for reality to have always existed or to have formed itself.
13 God did make Himself and was here forever. It is not ridiculous for a God to have always existed or to have formed Itself.
14 God is benevelent—all on Earth may enter Heaven. He wields no power but love.
15 God is vindictive—if your god-given free will does not follow His will, He will torture you forever by burning you in Hell.
16 Only Christians may enter Heaven. (the Pope)
17 All but the Moslems are infidels and can’t enter Heaven.
18 There is/is not Heaven, Devil, Angels Hell, Purgatory, Limbo.
19 God answers prayers and e-mails.
20 God leaves us on our own and doesn’t interfere.
21 God made divine revelations to the founder of my religion, but not to the founders of other religions.
22 The angel Gabriel appeared to Mohammed in a cave.
22 An angel appeared to Mary to prepare her for the Immaculate Conception.
23 God is all knowing.
24 God had no idea that the humans of Noah’s era would turn out so bad.
25 God is infallible.
26 God exterminated all life in Noah’s time, but then realized He made a big mistake and so invented the rainbow as a sign that He would never make this mistake again.
27 God wants statues in churches (Catholic).
28 God does not want statues in churches (Protestant).
29 The Pope is infallible.
30 The Pope is not recognized by other religions.
31 Evolution never happened.
32 God created life by letting evolution take over for him.
33 God created Adam and Eve out of clay.
34 God only wants men to be priests.
35 God wants both men and women to be clerics.
36 God will soon end the world, although He was going to do so in the 1990’s but changed His mind. (Jehovah Witness)
37 God, with His intelligence systems and emotional systems is far too complex of a composite to be absolute and fundamental and be made only of Himself.
99 Many items have omitted above that could be thought of to add to the confusion.
I had a vivid dream, probably from a book that I was writing about what happened after King Arthur died, entitled ‘Last Knight’s Almanac’ and I’ll use the content of this dream in the book, but, the real question is: Who wrote the dream?
The dream was about the rites and wrongs of spring for King Percevale and his two squires and went as follows, stated in the present tense to bring it alive:
The trio comes to a road that is blocked by the passing of a spring carnival. It is the annual ‘Rites of spring Celebration’, doubly raucous this year because it also celebrates the recent victories of war. There are tumblers, troubadours, circus acts and the like, and it is well attended with drunken revelry. A vendor on squire Bogar’s right is selling sacred objects for unbelievably low prices and so Bogar takes the opportunity of the journey’s pause to investigate the bargains.
His attention is first brought to a piece of the venerated wood of the true cross, brought here by the vendor himself after he had gone on a pilgrimage to the Holy Land and secretly excavated the hill of the Holy Sepulcher at night, whilst a cathedral was being built over it. Bogar parts with some valuable coins and buys a worthless piece of wood. He also purchases a nail from that same cross. It is still incrusted with Christ’s blood. He buys also a portion of the actual crown of thorns, a shredded part of the tablecloth used at the last supper, a bone from St. Peter’s arm, a piece of the manger, some drops of the Virgins own milk sealed forever in a glass vial, and a tin cup used by Joseph of Aramithea to catch the blood of Jesus on that first Good Friday. Having spent all of his riches, he is about to return when he spots a golden box with a crystal lid, containing a purple cushion on which lays a piece of rusted iron, triangular in shape.
“This,” said the vendor, “is the tip of the spear that pierced the side of the Saviour!”
After much consultation with Hargrave, Bogar obtains a loan and makes the final purchase. The riding junk-pile returns and King Percevale examines the haul with horror.
“Throw all of this rattling junk away!” the King insists.
“But most of this is from the true and holy cross, sire!”
“Squires,” replies Percevale, “I’ve seen enough pieces of the true cross to construct twenty fine sailing sloops of war and still have enough wood left over to build a bridge over the Usk river. What is that cup? Good God, we’ve found the Grail again! Fling it to that beggar by the creek who is sipping water with his hands!”
The squires quail at the King’s rage and let their treasures fall to the ground, but the King is laughing on the inside at the squires’ folly and soon they all break into hearty laughter. However, the laughing stops abruptly as they all notice that the box containing the spear tip is now quite full of blood.
“Keep the spear tip,” replies Percevale with haste, remembering some words of prophesy, “and attach it to a fine and sturdy stick, for the Crimson Spear has been returned to me.”
After the silence of the continuing journey becomes too much, Squire Hargrave inquires: “What is the origin of the Grail? And its purpose?”
“Well,” replies the King, “it was the actual chalice used by Joseph, a follower of Jesus, to catch Christ’s blood as he hung on the cross. It was passed down through his family and was god-sent to Arthur by the Mother Goddess of the Holy Isle of Avalon. When Arthur would hold the Grail, and only Arthur, it would turn red. It was first called the Crimson Chalice. Arthur himself is a symbol of the Savior and is said the be seven generations descended from Him. We knights are Arthur’s disciples, modern day priest-soldiers out to make the world a better place. However, the Grail was lost and you know the rest of the story.
Guinevere is a symbol of Eve, temptress of men, and of paradise regained. Taliesin the poet is a symbol of the beauty of our pure souls. And the Lady of the Lake, she is a mother to us all, as from her we are all descended. But, to answer your question more completely, the Grail symbolizes man’s harmony with nature and with the gods, which are really one and the same with us. All is of a whole. God and nature are not without us, they are within us. When Arthur received the Grail back he again became one with the Land. I found the Grail by shedding my armor, a symbol of my pride.”
“In what kind of God do you actually believe in then?” asks Bogar.
“Well,” answered Percevale, “there are legends saying that Jesus, Merlyn, and the spirits of the Holy Isle of Avalon are either gods or messengers of the gods, for they are real enough and many have seen them—but we touch only the hem of the mysterious garments of mystery in which the universe is clothed! That there are mysterious forces beyond our comprehension, I do not deny—there are mystics and magicians with senses beyond our own—it is called second sight. And there are many forces that tug on us from beyond. However, my particular ‘God’ cannot be separated from all that is. There are forces of physics in the universe, immutable and unchangeable. That the universe has our well being in mind is proved by our very existence. However, the most preposterous notion that humans ever dreamed up is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and ruler of all the Universes, wants the adoration of his creatures, can be swayed by their prayers, their begging for favors; and becomes hateful if he does not receive this flattery. This God of mystery, this vengeful God who will allow no other gods before him, who exacts homage from us, this God of the sky I cannot see or understand or believe in! People have invented this God to their liking in their own image. These people could not simply accept the fact that man and nature and all that exists in the natural world could form without cause. These people saw complexity in the world which they could not explain by any other means but by this God. So—save a step, and accept that the world simply is! Look for ‘God’ within nature and yourselves, not without. Know that the universe has our well being at heart only in the general sense, and not in the personal sense. Do not curse the rains that nourish the land, the worms that cultivate the soil, the winds that blow so hard and carry the seeds, for, without these things the world would not have survived. We’re all in this together—you, me, the rain, the winds, and the worms.
“What kind of superbeing would create creatures—a god who knows all, knows our folly to come—and then expect praise and glorification from people begging for favors and blessings so that they can have an easier life? Let our goodness of heart and our good deeds be our ‘God’. They are real; they can be seen. We are of the world; that is our origin, like it or not. Let us do good only for the sake of good. The world can be made a better place through action, not through passive praying. And so you may think what you may, my squires, but that is my opinion, and I do not preach it, but if I am asked, I give it. And since forming that opinion I’ve later come to conclude that we should not worry about that which is so invisible, and so I no longer do so anymore.”
I had a vivid dream, probably from a book that I was writing about what happened after King Arthur died, entitled ‘Last Knight’s Almanac’ and I’ll use the content of this dream in the book, but, the real question is: Who wrote the dream?
The dream was about the rites and wrongs of spring for King Percevale and his two squires and went as follows, stated in the present tense to bring it alive:
The trio comes to a road that is blocked by the passing of a spring carnival. It is the annual ‘Rites of spring Celebration’, doubly raucous this year because it also celebrates the recent victories of war. There are tumblers, troubadours, circus acts and the like, and it is well attended with drunken revelry. A vendor on squire Bogar’s right is selling sacred objects for unbelievably low prices and so Bogar takes the opportunity of the journey’s pause to investigate the bargains.
His attention is first brought to a piece of the venerated wood of the true cross, brought here by the vendor himself after he had gone on a pilgrimage to the Holy Land and secretly excavated the hill of the Holy Sepulcher at night, whilst a cathedral was being built over it. Bogar parts with some valuable coins and buys a worthless piece of wood. He also purchases a nail from that same cross. It is still incrusted with Christ’s blood. He buys also a portion of the actual crown of thorns, a shredded part of the tablecloth used at the last supper, a bone from St. Peter’s arm, a piece of the manger, some drops of the Virgins own milk sealed forever in a glass vial, and a tin cup used by Joseph of Aramithea to catch the blood of Jesus on that first Good Friday. Having spent all of his riches, he is about to return when he spots a golden box with a crystal lid, containing a purple cushion on which lays a piece of rusted iron, triangular in shape.
“This,” said the vendor, “is the tip of the spear that pierced the side of the Saviour!”
After much consultation with Hargrave, Bogar obtains a loan and makes the final purchase. The riding junk-pile returns and King Percevale examines the haul with horror.
“Throw all of this rattling junk away!” the King insists.
“But most of this is from the true and holy cross, sire!”
“Squires,” replies Percevale, “I’ve seen enough pieces of the true cross to construct twenty fine sailing sloops of war and still have enough wood left over to build a bridge over the Usk river. What is that cup? Good God, we’ve found the Grail again! Fling it to that beggar by the creek who is sipping water with his hands!”
The squires quail at the King’s rage and let their treasures fall to the ground, but the King is laughing on the inside at the squires’ folly and soon they all break into hearty laughter. However, the laughing stops abruptly as they all notice that the box containing the spear tip is now quite full of blood.
“Keep the spear tip,” replies Percevale with haste, remembering some words of prophesy, “and attach it to a fine and sturdy stick, for the Crimson Spear has been returned to me.”
After the silence of the continuing journey becomes too much, Squire Hargrave inquires: “What is the origin of the Grail? And its purpose?”
“Well,” replies the King, “it was the actual chalice used by Joseph, a follower of Jesus, to catch Christ’s blood as he hung on the cross. It was passed down through his family and was god-sent to Arthur by the Mother Goddess of the Holy Isle of Avalon. When Arthur would hold the Grail, and only Arthur, it would turn red. It was first called the Crimson Chalice. Arthur himself is a symbol of the Savior and is said the be seven generations descended from Him. We knights are Arthur’s disciples, modern day priest-soldiers out to make the world a better place. However, the Grail was lost and you know the rest of the story.
Guinevere is a symbol of Eve, temptress of men, and of paradise regained. Taliesin the poet is a symbol of the beauty of our pure souls. And the Lady of the Lake, she is a mother to us all, as from her we are all descended. But, to answer your question more completely, the Grail symbolizes man’s harmony with nature and with the gods, which are really one and the same with us. All is of a whole. God and nature are not without us, they are within us. When Arthur received the Grail back he again became one with the Land. I found the Grail by shedding my armor, a symbol of my pride.”
“In what kind of God do you actually believe in then?” asks Bogar.
“Well,” answered Percevale, “there are legends saying that Jesus, Merlyn, and the spirits of the Holy Isle of Avalon are either gods or messengers of the gods, for they are real enough and many have seen them—but we touch only the hem of the mysterious garments of mystery in which the universe is clothed! That there are mysterious forces beyond our comprehension, I do not deny—there are mystics and magicians with senses beyond our own—it is called second sight. And there are many forces that tug on us from beyond. However, my particular ‘God’ cannot be separated from all that is. There are forces of physics in the universe, immutable and unchangeable. That the universe has our well being in mind is proved by our very existence. However, the most preposterous notion that humans ever dreamed up is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and ruler of all the Universes, wants the adoration of his creatures, can be swayed by their prayers, their begging for favors; and becomes hateful if he does not receive this flattery. This God of mystery, this vengeful God who will allow no other gods before him, who exacts homage from us, this God of the sky I cannot see or understand or believe in! People have invented this God to their liking in their own image. These people could not simply accept the fact that man and nature and all that exists in the natural world could form without cause. These people saw complexity in the world which they could not explain by any other means but by this God. So—save a step, and accept that the world simply is! Look for ‘God’ within nature and yourselves, not without. Know that the universe has our well being at heart only in the general sense, and not in the personal sense. Do not curse the rains that nourish the land, the worms that cultivate the soil, the winds that blow so hard and carry the seeds, for, without these things the world would not have survived. We’re all in this together—you, me, the rain, the winds, and the worms.
“What kind of superbeing would create creatures—a god who knows all, knows our folly to come—and then expect praise and glorification from people begging for favors and blessings so that they can have an easier life? Let our goodness of heart and our good deeds be our ‘God’. They are real; they can be seen. We are of the world; that is our origin, like it or not. Let us do good only for the sake of good. The world can be made a better place through action, not through passive praying. And so you may think what you may, my squires, but that is my opinion, and I do not preach it, but if I am asked, I give it. And since forming that opinion I’ve later come to conclude that we should not worry about that which is so invisible, and so I no longer do so anymore.”
Thanks Austin,If I dreamed like you I would be writing books,and resting on the beach.
regards michael.
__________________ Humilty,coupled with boldness,surprises truth to
reveal herself?
What would it be like to stumble across lands that no one else had ever been to, and how could you know that?
After reading Sir Conan Doyle's ‘Lost World’ about dinosaurs on a sealed off plateau of a volcano, I wondered if there were any more undiscovered places.
So, while at the Earth Day Summit in Rio last month, I forayed into the uncharted regions of Brazil, having chosen from a map the most desolate and remotest area. After various vaccinations and preparations, I trucked my one-man helicopter to the last way station, loaded the extra gas tanks onto it and flew into the heart of darkness, gliding down onto a field just as the gas ran out. From here I walked for tens of miles, always taking the most difficult path whenever there was a choice. This would insure that I could end up in some unvisited hard-to-get-at region.
After several hundred or so of these improbable choices, I came across acres and acres of Lady's Slippers flowers—very rare flowers that usually only appeared in small bunches, growing only in conjunction with a rare fungus, and, even, then, usually get picked. I was getting close.
I then, after taking one last really difficult turn, discovered entire fields of many flowers long though to be extinct. There were Eve’s Blossoms, not seen for thousands of years, historically valued for their life extending elixir, as well as the original, lost, strain of Pearly Everlasting, the flower that never dies, and so I suspected that I might be in virgin territory. How would I know? Well, for one, there were no paths, for even animals and their hunters had either long left or had never been here. Also, the flower colors were not like any that I had ever seen before, not new colors, mind you, but, just, well, colors of different intensities and hues that were not thought to exist in nature. I saw true-blue roses, legendary no more.
I had chanced upon a land of strange rainbows of elfin-hued flowers: Red Delphiniums, Black Tulips, Orange Fuchsias, White Marigolds, Bronze grass, Yellow Violets, and Adam's Apple, now growing from the ground.
Was this the original forest—the Garden of Eden? Was I the first to return? And then I knew that it was, for there, right in front of me, was a field of thousands of undisturbed golden nuggets on the forest floor. Surely no one had ever been here, at least not for a long, long time.
Re: God and the universe. 
Linear Mode
