How can the suffering of one Holy man wash away the sins of mankind?

[Tina]

Yes the bible in many parts is profound literature but in the end it is a man-made book and we know how trustworthy the human element is!

From where does the idea come that it is the inspired and infalliable word of God? This seems like an idolatrous presumption. Do you have thoughts on this?

[Profpat]

I think that the it is the 1st that makes the 2nd possible. I do struggle with 'loving' but although I may think unloving thoughts and feel unloving things - I trust that I would not deliberately set out to hurt someone. But that's not love it is just acting nice "being nice" and avoiding trouble.

Hi Tina;

WOW! That is really profound, and I never thought about it before.

A little background on myself; Age 4 -15 Catholic, age 15 - 33 Agnostic ( Road to Damascus Religious Experience at 33) Age 33 -62 (Present ) Theist.

Not only is your post profound, but it's very honest.
I believe you can only come to God by experience, and not through logic. Quite often it takes a dramatic event for this awareness. Such as dodging bullets in a fox hole. In other words, it takes total surrender of your spirit for you to allow God to enter.

I practice Bhakti, which is a form of Yoga which sees God ( and His Love ), in all of mankind and in each individual man, therefore it's easy to love others.

Well, maybe we'll have to go back to the quote from the Upanishads from my Idea, and that is Life and Joy. Love the best you can and God's will, will be done.

Life and Joy to you Tina,

Pat

[Profpat]

Hi to all.
This redemption is not automatic, but each person has to accept it personally, by repenting of their sins and by a conversion of hearts with a sincere will not to sin again.

Yours Cosvis.

Hi Cosvis;

You just made a further and unnecessary stipulation to being saved. YOU DO HAVE TO TRULY REPENT. (PERIOD AMEN). Thats all folks.

Paul mission was to destroy True Christianity and BOY He did. Big Time.

If Jesus was crucified it was God's will. Period

How dare Paul speak for God.

And further, to say you have to accept that heretical teaching, is wrong.

Best to all,

Pat

[humanbydefault]

I have a guess...and I repeat that it could just be a guess without any evidence to prove it.

I believe that the concept of someone's sacrificing his or her life for the salvation of others could be trace back to the origin of the early era of human sacrifices. Indians in Peru and S. America in general used that rituals of human sacrifices as the only way of getting a 'second chance' from the Gods, they believe existed and reign their lives.

If the quote refers to Jesus, I could be wrong though, then I guess that even then [after millions of years of life evolution in Earth] the sacrifice of a human life could bring salvation to the living.

Now... It was never meant to 'literally erase' the wrong doing by those in charge of the execution, but it was meant instead to satisfy the anger of one particular God, allegedly very angry at the rest of "us."

More like "buying a second chance" from the almighty than to eraseit and start again...

The crucification of Jesus Christ by the Roman empire's soldiers was [in my humble opinion] a 'carbon copy' ritual of those human execution meant to keep Gods "happy." As if those Gods found some kind of pleasure in the death of a human being...

It makes the whole thing really pathetic to me. As if we were condemned to exist in a beautiful, large and complex universe ruled by a 'creator' who has no other 'entertainment' but to watch as a biological function is taken away from an intelligent organism... Very sad to my understanding...

I mean no disrespect to anyone, but the entire story sounds no different than the executions of captured indians of enemy tribes in order to ask God for rain (?)

Is just a simple comment with no intention of arguing about it.

[Tina]

[QUOTE=Profpat;35000]Hi Tina;


A little background on myself; Age 4 -15 Catholic, age 15 - 33 Agnostic ( Road to Damascus Religious Experience at 33) Age 33 -62 (Present ) Theist.
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I"ve just been watching youtube /#@&@!+*%^#

I'll try to get back to reality - yes I had the catholic background too...but just disenchanted now with believing and felling irrational at same time. I though about it alot and basically I've thought Christianity out of existance...

I just also kept talking about a God that no one understood and people disagree. Thanks for appreciating comments...if God then not one church talks about.

I'm off zzzz soon so if you make reply will respond tomorrow.

[Profpat]

Hi Humanbydefault;

I think the metaphor of Jesus's death is a little deeper.

Abraham was willing to sacrifice his most beloved son to God, could God do any less.

Best to all,

Pat

[Profpat]

Hi Cosvis;

You just made a further and unnecessary stipulation to being saved. YOU DO HAVE TO TRULY REPENT. (PERIOD AMEN). Thats all folks.

Paul mission was to destroy True Christianity and BOY He did. Big Time.

If Jesus was crucified it was God's will. Period

How dare Paul speak for God.

And further, to say you have to accept that heretical teaching, is wrong.

Best to all,

Pat

Sorry about the above post Cosvis, you are entitled to your opinion.

Best to you,

Pat

[Tina]

A good question; but what does it mean? If sin is a violation against the law of the creator, a Trinity of divine persons, than He alone can pardon and wash away its guilt. If it is his will to become a man than the sufferring of that Holy man would be able to wash away the sins of mankind.

Covis I think the God of the Jews (not Christians) had a better idea; Repent!
Sin is just disobedience to God. This God did not seek FAITH he saught FAITHFULNESS to his commands.

"Obey me and I will be your God"

[Tina]

The Original sin is the sin of forgetting the Kingdom of heaven. The remembrance is to once again become a member. Jesus is the basis of the remembrance.
The Original sin is the sin that makes all other sins possible.
A member of the KOH will not / can not sin because they know what the basis of all things are.
If the Original sin can be forgiven, any sin can be forgiven.
Jesus was our teacher/trainer (Of the 144000) before we came here this is why he takes it upon himself to stand before our father in defense of the Original sin and all the following sins that result.
John

1) You say that the original sin was forgetting the Kingdom of Heaven (KOH) - I question the notion of "forgetting" as satisfactory explanation - forgetting is not a deliberate act - it is an inability of memory to recall. You need a better word here.

2) When did this "original sin" occur? By original sin do you mean "first sin"?

3) What is it about "original sin" that makes all other sin possible? This suggests a causal relationship. Explain this cause and effect.

4) You say Jesus defends original sin. What is his "defence" argument?

5) You say a member of KOH cannot sin i.e. perfection - yet even Jesus is quoted as saying, "Why do you ask me what is good - only God is good - obey the commands" (will find passage details if required - not at hand now).

6) Jesus is also quoted as teaching how to pray "Our Father...forgive us our sins as we forgive them who sin against us". Doesn't this mean that the prayer is assumed to need to make this ongoing statement of the forgiveness policy.

[cosvis]

Hi to all,

I am so glad to read so many beautiful responses and see so many participating in this subject. But first, let me answer Lina's question above about what proof is there for the inspiration of the Bible. Theologians deal with God revealing himself, which is known as revelation. Divine Revelation can be natural through his creation of nature, or supernatural through inspiration to prophets or Holy men and women. It can be personal which is intended to a particular person or community, or it can be for all. These public revelations where collected and finally recalled in the Bible. There are many places in the Bible that talks about the inspiration of the Holy Scriptures. eg. 2Tim.3:16 "All scripture is inspired by God and useful for refuting error, for guiding people's lives and teaching them to be upright." It is through revelation in the Bible that we learn about God's great love for mankind and Jesus' sacrificial act of redemption for all mankind.

Yours Cosvis.