[austintorn@aol.com]

Many myths and revelations come from olden times, when there were many such variations sworn to. All claims have been revealed by HUMANS. We don’t even know which ones to put stock in, if any. I like King Arthur myself, but Arturus seems to have really been a somewhat minor war chief. Rather than absorb hearsay, we may wish to look at what can observe for ourselves— what is there to be seen directly and, just as important, what is not.


If we believe in the never-seen, then there are Devilish Angels hovering about us, even at this moment, perhaps, whispering temptations as if we thought of them ourselves;

However, all that we observe is that many forbidden thoughts come and go (hopefully) in the mind. If we go by the known, the brain can be often improved through learning, psychiatry, and drugs.


The never-known posits the creation of humans by a Theity, or at least the placing of a soul therein.

Evolution presents us with a sequence of remains that we can see and touch and date with precision—all of which which led to humans, DNA preserving all that we went through. No soul is apparent.


For the magicly-inclined, a complex composite God led to the simplicity of energy or quarks, thence to the complex composites of us.

In real observation, we can trace our complexity back through lesser composite complexities… to atomic elements to quarks, electrons, photons, and energy fields of the quantum realm within the Planck size, the progression always being ever simpler and smaller. No large complexity has been seen at a low level.


Myth-makers claim miracles.

In reality, an amputee never grew back a limb or anything obvious like that.


The “special” receive Heaven as a reward because a good higher mammal said they would.

Reality: higher mammals claim lots of contradictory things.


The unknowing claim intervention in life by Theities.

However; everything is observed to operate on its own. No intervention has been found.


Believers in the supernatural claim that Hell exists.

It’s never been seen.


Humans with visions say that humanity is ‘special’.

However, humans are seen to be electrochemical beings that are part and parcel of the organic world.


Some claim that God existed forever.

Science notes that energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transformed.


Certain religions claim to be right and true.

Reality: Many religions contradict each other even at the basics, such as the divinity of Jesus, Heaven or no Heaven, and what books are in the Bible and what are not.


Religion claims that much is invisible and should be taken on faith (meaning not provable).

Yes, the invisible would not be visible—agreement at last; thus all such claims are without proof.

[MJA]

Originally Posted by austintorn@aol.com Many myths and revelations come from olden times, when there were many such variations sworn to. All claims have been revealed by HUMANS. We don’t even know which ones to put stock in, if any. I like King Arthur myself, but Arturus seems to have really been a somewhat minor war chief. Rather than absorb hearsay, we may wish to look at what can observe for ourselves— what is there to be seen directly and, just as important, what is not.

Well said Austin,

I liked Santa Claus the best until I was told as a child that he was untrue.
I still do not understand why mankind would lie to his own children?
Isn't Santa a Christmas Christian religious tradition, practice___ idea?
What other religious ideas are untrue?
How much of religion is truly true, and how much is make-believe like Santa?
That's the real question.
Shouldn't we tell our children only the truth?

=
MJA

[Profpat]

And the Bible has the universe with a beginning, and light being created before there was a sun, and the evolutionary order of vegatation, sea life, reptiles, mammals, and man. What insight for a book written 3,000 years ago. It has man as dust and dust we shall always be. WOW. How did they know that? Our science is just now being able to confirm these things.

Being skeptical is wise, being cynical and sarcastic is ignorant and rude.

Many truths are found in the ancient texts of the Bible, the Tao, the Upanishads, the Gita, the Dramapada. An open mind is the key to the universe.

Best to all,

Pat

[leskey]

"He who wonders, discovers that this in itself is a wonder." Escher

[Signo]

Hi Profpat, the bible is based on the books before it. It is natural for people to assume there is a beginning and an end. A beginning of the world, a beginning of man, etc etc. Also most of the bible stories are based on the movements of the sun, or a regurgitated version of dozens and dozens of religions before it. Not sure how the bible is any different from the many other stories written back in the day.

And Leskey I don't think you understand why evolution is considered 'law'. Yes, evolution (Natural Selection) was thought up a long time ago, but to think that it hasn't been changed since then is silly, think about how much other sciences have advanced. But even with the small changes the overarching theme has always been fact. No one is disagreeing that things evolve, it's been proven a million times over. There are only a few minor disagreements on the nature of some evolution.

To reiterate. No one who knows anything about evolution says it is false. They disagree with certain aspects of it, doesn't mean the idea is ALL wrong.

It took the Catholic church hundreds of years to finally admit that Kepler was right about planetary movements, yet they acknowledge that evolution is fact, perhaps you are misinformed?

Even extremely strict creationist use evolution to explain how that chap fit all those animals on the arc. Of course their version of evolution is laughable, but they still use it.

I don't get why the concept of natural selection is that hard to understand. It's so simple...

Originally Posted by Leskey In as much as religion requires faith and belief, it is every bit a religion. Just like "religion," it is not constrained by shores or borders. Over the subsequent 150 or so years, it has insidiously inculcated itself into our bureaucracies and hallowed institutions to the point where it has become a "law" unto itself.

I've seen you write something similar to this a few times now. Yet you never mention any details, just repeat the same useless crap that Dembski churns out. I'm sure your a Dembski fan as your writing seems to mimic the one source you've learned something from.

Even Dembski agrees with 99.9% of evolution. I've read somewhere(forget where) where Dembski said that it would be idiotic to not agree with the basis of evolution. He cares about a few details, not debunking the whole thing.

[leskey]

Originally Posted by MJA;54043[FONT=Garamond Mankind has been rescued, how so?[/font] I think were still lost, adrift at sea, and desperately in need of rescue. The food is running out too, haven't you heard the news? And don't drink the water that surrounds you, its polluted. Are you waiting for the saviour to come again, or are you one of those who believes everything will be fine once you die and go to heaven? I think we better paddle ourselves off the rocks, while we still can, but say a prayer too, it might help. = MJA

Yes, MJA. The message is, "Don't Panic!"

What is your reply to the question posed by this thread??? You'll have other posters thinking you're some sort of "antagonist-bot," fated to endlessly prowl this website offending all who dare enter.

[cosvis]

Hi to all,

I wish I had more time to comment on many of your thoughts and ideas. The best line I read in the last few threads came from Pat; "An open mind is the the key to the universe!" If we all had an open mind to truth, goodness, and beauty we would be on our way to build a better humanity, society and a universe where all people could find peace, security and happiness. In other words, we would be able to come to know and to experience God because he is the infinite truth, goodness and beauty.

I think MJA that we should have an open mind when we come to Santa Claus, it does have some truth and meaning to the young. St. Paul at one time said: "When I was a child, I thought , I spoke and I acted like a child; but when I became an adault, I left behind my chidhood and I thought, spoke and acted like an adault." For a child to come to learn and to experience that there are kind people like Santa Claus who freely give kindness to others when they are in need and especially when they are good obedient children, is a great lesson to learn. It would be a very dull world for the children, if we got rid of all fairy tales. By the way, the story of Santa Claus, is based on a real life story of St. Nicholas who distributed his wealth to the poor and needy. If everyone would do it, we would have a better world.

You have another good question MJA: "Mankind has been rescued, how so?" This is a very big and good question; it could be the beginning of another thread; since it is at the essence of Christ's redeeming sacrifice. Just brievely, Christ revealed God to us; that God is a loving Father who created all things but especially humankind so that we could have eternal life with him for ever. Christ's death conquered evil, sin and death and it is now through the working of Christ's Church that God's kingdom is slowly growing. Whatever is true, good and beautiful belongs to the kingdom of God. It may still take thousands of years for God's kingdom to come fully but it is coming. I could go on and on and list all the good things that are happening now in the world which did not happen before.

I just like to make a comment also on Melanie's statement above: " Jesus never suffered, it was an illusional suffering. It was a metaphor, a story, a parable, invented by man." and again: "No - mind suffers not. Does it not?" I believe Melanie that there does exist spiritual anguish and pain of the mind. Did not Mary, mother of Jesus, suffer when she saw her son being unjustly crucified on the cross, seen him being rediculed, laughed at and spit upon? Does not a mother suffer when she has lost a young child? I have often seen grief of mothers, fathers, husbands, wives and loved ones when they have lost a loved one. If Christ's suffering was not real but only a story how come thousands of martyrs have given their lives because they believed in what Jesus had taught; even those who were alive when Jesus lived?

Yours Cosvis.

[melanie]

covis: I just like to make a comment also on Melanie's statement above: " Jesus never suffered, it was an illusional suffering. It was a metaphor, a story, a parable, invented by man." and again: "No - mind suffers not. Does it not?" I believe Melanie that there does exist spiritual anguish and pain of the mind. Did not Mary, mother of Jesus, suffer when she saw her son being unjustly crucified on the cross, seen him being rediculed, laughed at and spit upon? Does not a mother suffer when she has lost a young child? I have often seen grief of mothers, fathers, husbands, wives and loved ones when they have lost a loved one. If Christ's suffering was not real but only a story how come thousands of martyrs have given their lives because they believed in what Jesus had taught; even those who were alive when Jesus lived?

Covis suffering is indeed real, it is mental suffering, through attachment.
attachment to temporal 'things', but in reality no-one suffers,
it is only mental, a mis-identification with the assumed 'separate self' as being who you really are,
again to repeat myself, you are not the body,
you are the one spirit, and the spirit is acting as 'you'
the spirit wanted to become visible,
so in order to do so it manifested as finite life forms,
they are the manifestations of the infinite one, experiencing
all the pleasures and the not so pleasures of the material world.

In the end it's only a dream, made real, no-one is really suffering,
suffering is just the chaos we don't like,
if there was no suffering
we would not know bliss and pleasure.

the one spirit is ETERNAL we are endowed with that spirit as the experiencing in a finite material body, the body is the vehicle for spirit.
We are not a body, we are eternal spirit having myriads of experiencings.
It's a miracle, society conditions us to think that we are separate bodies.
And we become trapped in a separate world of our own until we wake up.
Wake up To the messages jesus relentlessly relayed to us.
That realization is going to take a billion years to be finally realized and accepted by the illusionary 'phantom' aka man.

Imagine for a minute you were in a dream and all your experiencing was limited, and one day someone came to you in the dream and said....
I can make this dream real for you, so you can see, feel, smell, taste, and hear,
all the wonderful things in your dream.
I can make it be real and come true.
Well that's what is happening in this world now.
the one eternal spirit has made it's dreams come true.
Go back and read that letter from jesus again,
we have to read between the lines sometimes.
See the hidden meanings in the scriptures.
Things get very hairy and scary.
But just like your night dreams, everything is safe and well.


We are the eternal spirit having a finite material experience.
What and who is there to suffer and what about??
That's what jesus was trying to tell the people.
the story of mary weeping and such,
it's all a story nothing more nothing less.
A story told in an attempt to awaken mankind to his eternal divinity.
the ego doesn't like to be told it does not exist as a separate entity.
And because of that, unfortunately man does not get the message, he doesn't understand it.
Not yet anyway, but one day he will.
Unless man extinct's himself out of ignorance and lack of knowledge as to who and what he really is.


It's hard to explain covis, it has to be personally studied and realized.
MichaelKirkPatrick understands what i am talking about.
And so does Drifter, and r.p.bibra.

If you don't understand what i am saying and you don't like it, then reject it.
If you do like what i'm saying i will be happy to discuss it with you.

nothing can be known for definite, and most things are taken on faith and are merely speculation,
but if it resonates then let it absorb every fiber of your being, that's my belief.

Sorry i've had to rush this post, i've got to go out today.

melanie.

[Profpat]

Hi Signo:

Please tell me where the creation story as recorded in Chapter 1 of Genesis in the Bible is repeated in any text or document that predates it.

I know that some of the Mesopotamian stories of Eden and the flood, predates the Bible, but let us for our discussion keep to Chapter 1 of Genesis, which is very scientifically acurate right down to your beloved Theory of Evolution. Where is that found other than the Bible.

Other creation stories are very fanciful, dealing with such things as the Earth is on an elephant which is on a turtle, etc. Or an Egyptian godess stretching her arms to form the milky way. Gods doing battle with other gods, body parts being the foundation of the Earth, and so on..

So again where my friend is there a similar story to Genesis Chapter 1?

At the university level the disciplines are usually broken down in 4 areas ( RELIGION, PHILOSOPHY, ART AND SCIENCE ). I find value in all 4 areas of study. There underlying objective to be Truth. Love and Beauty.

Everyone should have an open mind to all 4 areas and 3 objectives, in an attempt to become truly enlightened.

Best to all,

Pat

[MJA]

Originally Posted by Profpat And the Bible has the universe with a beginning, and light being created before there was a sun, and the evolutionary order of vegatation, sea life, reptiles, mammals, and man. What insight for a book written 3,000 years ago. It has man as dust and dust we shall always be. WOW. How did they know that? Our science is just now being able to confirm these things. Best to all, Pat

There was a beginning Professor, are you sure about that?

The rest of what you have wtitten sounds like religious universal evolution.
Do you call it evolution or creation, or are they truly one and the same?
And not to stray to far away, do you believe suffering is good?

=
MJA