Does it take an intellectual to knock God??

[SB_UK]

... ... and every person who lives or has lived in a Sophisticated Civilised Society ... ... ... is the product of the tenets of Christianity and the Judaic ten Commandments irrespective whether you, I or they are conscious of the fact.

:: reference :: previous post
-> which is to state that

WE DON'T LIVE IN A CIVILIZED SOCIETY.

(yet)

Whatever we have seems to revolve around the exchange of trinkets between one party and another -
- where the price {charged,paid} is set to obscure quality and is determined by the larger (more effective bullying) party.

If Christianity and Judaism are to blame for the globalised {World,economy} -
- economic concerns being (sadly) the pre-eminent factor in all of our lives -
- then I'm sure that you will gain no Thanks for pointing this out.

Are Christianity and Judaism to blame?
See Historical record.

Given the nature of the problem we're in -
best (surely) to solve the problem
- rather than to point the finger at any given people.

We're in trouble and only through identifying Why? and then correcting the problem -
- can we move on.

Blaming Judaism and Christianity (if these religions are to blame) -
will lead is nowhere.

[Mikal]

Thank you for reiterating my previous claim that we are not living in a sophisticated civilized society...

The exchange of trinkets you speak of is the very force within society, the economic force which can and has been manipulated for the gain and power of a chosen few...

No use blaming religion for this, we need more to understand this force within society for it affects the whole of our lives from our jobs, careers, lifestyles, health and wellbeing and even the psychological roles within our heads which have to do with the wellbeing of our family and the children we raise....


Mikal

[SB_UK]

Thanks Mikal.

~*~

The society we live in isn't {sophisticated,civilized}
- it's just appears that way (very superficially) - because of the similarity between complexity and obfuscation.

Evolution by complexity simplifies.
Obfuscation (however) leads to the greater seeming (though not really) complexity which convolutes.

Society would work if we invented 100 languages and gave everybody (randomly)
access to 1.5 of these
- however society'd work most efficiently if we all spoke the same language.

Separation of reality into University disciplines has lead to a fragmentation in the way that reality is taught to people -
and because none of us have the time to study for 50 degrees -
- we each imagine that there's something to learn on each of these courses and that since there's something which'd occupy the average person for 3 years
50 times over

- that society (whatever we have here) is sophisticated.

... ... it isn't though.

ToE brings (Systems thinking) together all of these separated (Molecular thinking) strands and unifies them -
- much as one would expect from any Unifying Theory.

~*~

ToE provides us with an understanding of why we're here by generalizing reality.

As Mikal teaches us
- cycles (particularly the 26,000 year precessionary cycle) - has been the guiding light which has overseen our own development.

We are and continue to be governed by cycles in our wider environment.

The process of development of man occurred

'we are what we are because of ... ...'

- by the same set of rules which stipulate that there can be only one periodic table.

It's possible to turn the argument of the Creationists on their heads,
here -
we don't need an intelligence to create intelligently

The noun is not required to generate the verb.

- however, if we're observing a pattern which
(when applied)
generates man (with mind) -
then there's an inevitability to our own existence.
- an inevitability to our own evolution, development, existence.

The fact
(to our minds) -
that we're here (over the last few thousand years) pondering how we arose has lead us into development of a
Theory of Everything which answers just this question.

A (validated) pattern is all.

Judaism and Christianity may have {helped,hindered} our own development -
- the importance though of religion (of the question posed in this thread) though wanes post-ToE -
- since the set of great religions serve us in only that manner in which data (is used by the scientist) to validate a model.

Once the model is delivered -
- the data (exact nature of each individual religion) becomes of lesser (though not un-) importance -

of lesser importance to, at least justify an end to religious fundamentalism, terrorism and violent recruitment policies.

Freedom 'to faith' is delivered by ToE -
freedom to sculpt one's own bespoke faith, if 'Sir' prefers.


~*~

The influence of religion appears to be waning (younger generations appear to be less taken by the church) -

- this observation considered -
- perhaps now'd be an opportune time for people of various key positions within their various faiths to re-interprete their religions based around ToE -

- to re-invigorate their religions in such a manner that people can be brought back into the fold (whichever fold, perhaps all people into all folds), and helped to benefit from the benefit which faith delivers unto man.

It's not about how many people are recruited to your faith - it's about how well people are guided to maturity through proper teaching.

The process of guiding people to (individual) maturity results in a people ready (equipped with sufficient knowledge) (when mature)
- to a people capable of generating good society.

Education to morality, leading to a functional society of equals -
the capacity to respect others and to be respected (in turn)

- to dwell on the importance of one or two religions in the historical record, will lead us nowhere -
- a pointless consideration from any higher perspective

- the difference between striving towards building a better future (for future generations) and patting ourselves on the back for having 'gotten' 'this far' -
- where 'this far' isn't:

Thank you for reiterating my previous claim that we are not living in a sophisticated civilized society...

~*~

----------------------
Post-Summary
----------------------

The development of man is programmed
- we are what we are because of a process of evolution operating under evolutionary constraint -

the importance of any specific religion is important only in the sense that data is required to test the model.

If 'Judaism and Christianity' is the name for the largest dataset which we've used to generate a 'Theory for Everything' - then although we may acknowledge the fact -
it's the process of
ToE -> specific religion, which we are then at and must then consider -

ToE -> specific religion
- to correct any errors which arose in the process of generating specific instantiations of God.

One obvious error'd be the suggestion that there are more than one God -
- all Gods are the same.

Multiple attempts to know the same unknowable entity.

The act of attempting to know the unknowable is the commonality here.
Of striving towards knowing the 'unknowable'

- not of killing some other guy for not buying into your own {personal,group} illusion of the {real,unknowable}.

ToE -> specific religion
- to correct any errors which arose in the process of generating specific instantiations of God.

ToE guides faith.

[austintorn@aol.com]

Speaking of some BS mentioned earlier, the winner of the BS award of the year is:

**Acerbity and sarcasm overt rudeness and gratuitous dismissiveness is not really my thing,

[arthur]

I agree for the most part on this perspective. As most laws that we abide by today did not originate in Europe nor from the same concept of god. Are we a result of a religion that brought these idealisms or concepts together? Yes. Arguments and debate as to being products of this concept of god can be made, the fear of punishment by man is the main reason for this belief prevailing, but we can not change history or the religions position in it. Yet we make our decisions based on our own beliefs and idealisms and for that religion to prevail for so long would suggest that it is in acceptance with society.

Hello greenbug,
Thank you for politely relating you post to the proposition. Your granddads advise is reasonably sound. We, the rural peasants in my part of the world have inherited by osmosis, "show me don’t tell me, one can teach a parrot to say the words," At this point I might as well put in an anecdote

One might ask the question, what more does an expert and Professor of 'gravity' who tripped over and broke his ankle whilst stepping off the rostrum after giving an hour lecture on gravity know about the subject than an illiterate trapeze artist? Certainly the Professor will know more words, he may be able to describe with mathematical eloquence every detail of every tumble and somersault. He may be able to explain the mechanics of weight distribution in a body swinging on a trapeze or balancing on a high wire. But then, one could no doubt train a monkey to use a typewriter and type out the same wordy descriptions or teach a parrot to say the words. The trapeze artist or the monkey may not understand one word about gravity but to see them display their skills is manifest that they obviously do understand a great deal about the subject of gravity and if the Professor did he wouldn't have his foot in plaster.

To the point; You and every other person being a product of their perception of their environment, Or, to be more precise, for the non intellectual, You greenbug (and 'almost' everybody else) as an individual, as a person, your personality, your shape, your health, your interests, your capabilities and a great deal more are 'almost' solely the result of how you physically responded in the past to your perceptions of your environment from birth. And, at some point in your development any response you did effect would be influenced by your inherent undefined predisposition to abide by the rules which have evolved from the tenets of Christianity and the Ten Commandments. It is these rules that give you your ethics and you principles.
I don’t actually know you greenbug so for the following examples let us assume that you are my brother or my sister or me or just one of the ordinary nice people in this forum who live in our Sophisticated Civilised Society, Or Even one of the ignorant carcinogenic pseudo intellectuals who seem intent on destroying the credibility of the system and of the 'beliefs' of the people who encourage and maintain the rules in question.
You/they/me don’t flagrantly masturbate in public, because it is just not in good taste, When you are feeling uncomfortably erotic you don’t search for some one to rape, not because it is against the law and not because of the fear of being caught and tried by a system which has evolved from those rules, but because of ….? You don’t display your karma sutra antics in front of your children or your grand mother like chimps do because….? You don’t gratuitously use extremely foul or graphic language in public when talking with children, the spontaneous hormonal sensations of disgust or revulsion or the sense of injustice you feel when you see or experience something that you consider horribly unjust or immoral etc, etc. The criterions you unconsciously and spontaneously use when you unconsciously evaluate the ethical or moral value of something come from the rules in question.

You, don’t and Most people don't gratuitously steal, vandalise, destroy, brutalise etc other people or their property for fun or gain, like 'they' do in other countries, in many ghettos in many cities where this inherent sense of Christian morality doesn’t exist, not because of a Law. Most people feel a shyness, embarrassment and remorse or a guilt when their breaches of 'the 'moral' code' become public, not because of a Law, they cannot define the code, "its just not a nice thing to do" etcetera and it goes on and on. I am sure that by now greebug you must see the soundness of my contention. But please do re-read my earlier posts.

As in, 'if the non intellectual wishs to destroy it, this integral part, ...unfinished idea or statement...' What would happen?

In principle 'non intellectuals', the ordinary folk, the proletariat, the workers and the contributors of the world don’t develop the inclination or have the time to be over concerned by what others of their ilk believe-One can see this in the playgrounds when children of different ethnicities, or when people of different religions harmoniously interact--that is usually until some one can convince enough of one group that the 'belief' or the faith of another group will adversely impact on their wellbeing, and usually that is an "intellectual" with a vested interest, journalists, mullah, journalists, politician, academic and of course journalists as well as wannabe academics.
To be able to assess what happens when people find that trying to abide by moral values that put them at a disadvantage in survival, one only has to listen to the wireless or look at the television and see what is happening in "the third world" and if one is willing to wait, sadly one may soon experience it first hand.

Almost finally, the question, 'does it take an intellectual ect' maybe should have been, 'Are the people who knock God really intellectuals?
So greenbug, I hope that you find the above snapshots helpful towards your understanding


The following are supplementary aspects to the proposition.

So Greg and anyone else with my earlier post's in mind all that one has to do is to take the proposition that "what is called, 'Christian' influence on Mankind is responsible for the present state of humanity (including you who are reading this) and responsible for the condition of the world caused by human activity." and consider the evolution (i.e. the rationale and reasons for the changes) of all of the individual things and aspects which make our sophisticated society possible. I have already mentioned 'From The ten commandments to the laws which gives us our individual freedom and all of that stuff like democracy with its worldwide influence and implications. Then look at 'people' and consider why global infant and children mortality (per-capita) is the lowest that it has ever been and relate it to the effects of global overpopulation; look at the evolution of health and hygiene, food availability and distribution, care for the poor and infirm, etc, etc. and relate that to overpopulation; and then, relate over populations contribution to global degradation. Look at the role and the evolution of institutionalised Christian academic and vocational education; look at the evolution and the number of socially pivotal secular institutions, centres, organisations which includes hospitals, etc which have in their title the word Saint or Christian and consider the motives for their inception and consider their local and world wide influences etc, etc. Consider the vast amount of non renewable global resources which have been used to fulfil the wont of Christians desire to help and improve the lot of their fellow man, etc, etc Consider the ecclesiastical sources of all of "western" music and its influences on the whole world, etc. Consider the percentage of China's, direct and indirect, economic and industrial development which can be directly attributed to the production of Christmas and Easter presents and paraphernalia; and then consider its contribution to the "economic" down turn of the "west", etc, etc, etc, as I have said elsewhere; "It should be recognised that the Evolution of Mankind, both physical and psychological, and Religion are so intertwined as to be inseparable.

..arthur

[arthur]

The formation of organized religion was the beginning point of the destruction of the Truth. The building of churches, mosques and temples directed a search for truth outside in the material as opposed to a necessary flow and communication with Nature and one's own internal life.
Religion created celibacy which is a natural deformation of the creative impulse within life itself.
Religion led man's search for his own truth into idolotry, which led to power, politics and judiciary which is unnatural to the creative impulse which is to have knowledge of living and feeling God moving within him...

God whatever that may be is not found in the intellect...however, is found in the heart.....


Mikal

Hello Mikal (and any one else)
I don’t really understand most of the post and at this stage I would rather not get into any detailed discussion on religion except where I see it being directly relates to my original proposition. But, I wholeheartedly agree with (God whatever that may be is not found in the intellect...however, is found in the heart..…) as I recognised as a very young boy when I asked an old nun if she believed in God when she replied "One doesn’t believe or disbelieve in God one either has God or one doesn’t have God".

arthur….

[arthur]

Hi, All.

Intellectual: guided by intelligence, rather than emotion or experience; rational

As a "product of (my) perception of (my) environment," I disagree with your presumptions. While it is not the aim of any religion, it is precisely the manmade componet of all religions, which causes the greatest rifts in, and between, societies: the messengers not living up to the message...

The basic tenet of religion(s) is to set high goals (motivation or a direction in time toward a better future) and place the responsibility for the consequences of failure beyond debate or criticism, ie outside the dubious ambit of human resonsibility and irrationality.

Thank you for your participation, Arthur.

Hi leskey
I have tried to but am unable to understand your post. If the presumptions that you mention are mine you will have to let me know what they are before I can make any comment on them.

You wrote, "the manmade componet of all religions"….. I suggest to you leskey that the phenomenon of a religion actually existing and the recognition of its existence can be nothing more than 'man made' (if by 'made' one mean 'constructed')

arthur

[arthur]

:: reference :: previous post
-> which is to state that

WE DON'T LIVE IN A CIVILIZED SOCIETY.

(yet)

Whatever we have seems to revolve around the exchange of trinkets between one party and another -
- where the price {charged,paid} is set to obscure quality and is determined by the larger (more effective bullying) party.

If Christianity and Judaism are to blame for the globalised {World,economy} -
- economic concerns being (sadly) the pre-eminent factor in all of our lives -
- then I'm sure that you will gain no Thanks for pointing this out.

Are Christianity and Judaism to blame?
See Historical record.

Given the nature of the problem we're in -
best (surely) to solve the problem
- rather than to point the finger at any given people.

We're in trouble and only through identifying Why? and then correcting the problem -
- can we move on.

Blaming Judaism and Christianity (if these religions are to blame) -
will lead is nowhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arthur 
... ... and every person who lives or has lived in a Sophisticated Civilised Society ... ... ... is the product of the tenets of Christianity and the Judaic ten Commandments irrespective whether you, I or they are conscious of the fact.

:: reference :: previous post
-> which is to state that

WE DON'T LIVE IN A CIVILIZED SOCIETY.
Whatever we have seems to revolve around the exchange of trinkets between one party and another -
- where the price {charged,paid} is set to obscure quality and is determined by the larger (more effective bullying) party.
If Christianity and Judaism are to blame for the globalised {World,economy} -
- economic concerns being (sadly) the pre-eminent factor in all of our lives -
- then I'm sure that you will gain no Thanks for pointing this out.
Are Christianity and Judaism to blame?
See Historical record.
Given the nature of the problem we're in -
best (surely) to solve the problem
- rather than to point the finger at any given people.
We're in trouble and only through identifying Why? and then correcting the problem -
- can we move on.
Blaming Judaism and Christianity (if these religions are to blame) -
will lead is nowhere

Hi SB,
I am genuinely puzzled, In an earlier post you said:

(The fact that we're here (over the last few thousand years) pondering how we arose has lead us into development of a Theory of Everything which answers just this question)

Where and what, bk, is this Theory of Everything, I hope that you have not misinterpreted something that I have written to be a TOE.

The quote from me

... ... and every person who lives or has lived in a Sophisticated Civilised Society ... ... ... is the product of the tenets of Christianity and the Judaic ten Commandments irrespective whether you, I or they are conscious of the fact.

must not be paraphrased to mean some thing that was not intended. SB, this is not me being 'pedantic with semantics' and I am aware that you and others have not done it with intent. I did not say Christianity and Judaism
I'm sure that you would agree that there is not a universal consensus as to a definitive meaning of 'Christianity' but there is a universal consensus as to its tenets. I have said that Roman Catholicism is not strictly Christianity, (which has proven to be very controversial) The main tenet is that its God is an all loving and forgiving God who gives sanctity to 'human life' per se and who through his 'Son' demands respect for all of its creations. No other religion has given sanctity to human life per se. And the second point is 'the wording of the 'Ten Commandments' and not Judaism per se.

Because it is impossible to objectively discuss anything emotionally, attributing "blame" for causing an undefined problem would almost certainly be argumentative.


arthur…

[SB_UK]

Where and what, bk, is this Theory of Everything...

In one sentence (described in much more detail as the convergence of ideas elsewhere)
- one rule which defines how everything can make sense (knowable) - and how unknowable can arise.

Next
- and by image -
Imagine a set of concentric spheres -

ToE is the progression which permits one sphere to evolve into an outer sphere -

- evolution to an outer sphere
- predictable (due to the pattern of evolution)
though
offering an unknowable perspective to pre-evolutionary structure

- the state post-evolution (although exciting, new,better to the pre- state} -
is still restricted
- governed by the same evolutionary rules as previously.

A larger sphere (in turn) awaits the post-evolutionary structure (in continued metaphor).

(pre-evolutionary 'sphere' -> post-evolutionary 'sphere')n

[arthur]

Speaking of some BS mentioned earlier, the winner of the BS award of the year is:

**Acerbity and sarcasm overt rudeness and gratuitous dismissiveness is not really my thing,

Hello Austin, Welcome back, (I hope with a reformed approach to matters serious)

You have made me feel quite proud that my humble attempt has been recognised, selected and publicised (in this post) by the one person who has the unchallengeable qualifications to determine its quality. Thank you.
Austin, please be honest with me, is this just one of your subtle jokes or is there really a BS award or was your post only an immature and ill-considered display of acerbity brought about by your desire for at least a smidgen, of revenge? (or was it as my mother would have said? 'just the smarting of a smarty-pants')

Austin, you really didn’t need to test your qualifications to determine what the phrase actually was, for it was obvious to any non partisan reader like the person for who it was intended that it was merely a throwaway paradoxical expression to humorously justify my non involvement in such activity. As you will recognise from the above that it really is not my thing. i.e. no acerbity, no overt rudeness and no gratuitous dismissiveness.

Any way Austin I do welcome you back, And always remember (from an earlier post) that the baiting and badgering of broad-shouldered battle-scarred badgers by Brock bum biting bold and brazen baby burrowing bunnies can only end in one of three ways (1) the fatigue of the badger. (2) the patting of the ears whilst la la la'ing of the hiding away bunny or (3), trying to use their joint intellects to try to improve the lot of man kind, even if it means defending their faith, their God or their Religion.

my kindest regards.. Arthur…..