Truth is Timeless

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Then stop mixing them. Spiritual, personal and religious are not sciences...

Esthetics, axiology and ethics are the sciences of the values of which you speak, which I've spoken extensively about at my thread, East Meets West Logic...

I am not denigrating the spiritual, personal or religious views. You are asking these views to be criticized by not respecting the truth of what is science, and what is clearly not science...

[SteveA]

Hi Lloyd,
The spiritual, personal or religious reality is just one part of the total reality that can be studied and thus can be called a science. The personal reality has definite principles like the virtues of faith, hope, trust, kindness, forgiveness and love; using proper reasoniing or logic, it investigates the reality of revelations, natural and supernatural. It is different from the physical reality and has different methods of investigations. The difference is similar to the difference between "Law" and the "Fine Arts", both of these fields also belong to reality and can be studied as sciences. I think one should also respect people of faith. If you do not respect them you end up not respecting most of humanity and this can lead to great miseries like Marcism that lead to communism and the gulags; or Nazism that lead to the concentration camps. These occurred because people disrespected people of faith. Whether you like it or not, spiritual reality exists. I think it would be better if the physical scientists should restrict their investigations to the physical reality and use its proper method and principles of investigations. To mix up the different sciences would only bring unnecessary difficulties.
Yours cosvis.

Thank you for your comment. I have also "bashed on religion" a little more than I should, though I don't think this was to a major extent - I try to be rather tolerant and non-dogmatic, especially considering that it's primarily just those components that people have complained about ... but over time it's become more obvious that this is not something particular to religions but exists in areas some people call "science" (and I do believe there is a distinction, despite how convoluted it appears at times). When you truly break it down, most every aspect of life is based upon some element of faith or belief and ultimately there is nothing specific that appears to determine what is subjective or objective except belief itself - a rather ironic situation.

The issue is not specifically religious, it's really just about (in)tolerance and (in)compatibility - though the world is large, it's still small enough that people can bump heads and this can (less ironically) even be aggravated by attempts to force people to be tolerant or have compatible views (the world is a de facto "mixing pot" but that doesn't mean we need to help force it to be - it's a limit we should learn to overcome).

In some ways, if I were to complain or try to remedy this, I'd be acting hypocritically myself - so there's really little to do in that respect but simply try to "be the change" (as hard as that can be at times to figure out, but it appears something worth the effort). Lloyd will be Lloyd and there's not a better replacement around (I think he means well too and I'd much rather learn by example from what's around than have to learn something a harder way, so I've got to give a couple thumbs up in that respect. I couldn't do Lloyd's job, or at least it wouldn't be easy).

Learn what you can, when you can (in the case of someone trying to teach, this can oftentimes be quite the opposite of what someone may have intended to teach ) and hopefully skip past any need to relearn it. If there's something you feel you're butting your head against, try a new approach - there's likely an easy way to get past or around it with a fresh perspective. (I turned off the news and stopped following politics and I don't regret it at all!).

Enjoy,
Steve

P.S. There are many things that science can't prove or disprove and instead of this meaning those things do not exist, they're really just open ended things left up to future decisions - whether or not it's all cast in stone doesn't matter, in either event we get to find out or determine (which ever perspective you chose) what that future unfolds as and this appears to require some active participation (though this appears to be something likely distributed over time as ones actions and influences have persistent effects).

[jag]

ERRORS

A type I error,
Or a false positive,
As believing something is real
When it is not.

A type II error,
Or a false negative,
Is not believing something is real
When it is.

A type I error, or a false positive,
Is believing something is real when it is not.

— Gravity can be suspended.

Hi Austin,

I might be a type I when it comes to gravity being suspended but I don't think so and I'll tell you why...If I load a wheel-barrow with a couple of hundred pounds of rock I can move them around with relative ease-Earth's gravity partially suspended.

A 20 ton airplane takes off and it's wings influence the air around them into low pressure areas above them and the plane becomes as light as a feather-Earth's gravity partially suspended.

Video of objects near the wall of an F5 tornado appear to have become lighter-again Earth's gravity partially suspended.

Dark Matter is what you work against for a partial suspension.
I hope you are not a staunch type II on this matter.

It is logical to think that if Dark Matter is a large percentage of the cosmos, it is a large percentage of QM as well. It is the stuff that holds it all together and causes gravity. It's the string.

We become the center of nothing only when QM is crippled.

jag

[austintorn@aol.com]

Gravity may be overcome but it is still there.

[austintorn@aol.com]

Part 2 of God vs. Science

[jag]

Gravity may be overcome but it is still there.

I can't imagine anything that could take away all of Earth's gravity...only small pieces for short periods of time.

We can do better.

[austintorn@aol.com]

Every time I pick up something off of the floor I conquer the gravity of the entire earth.

[SteveA]

Every time I pick up something off of the floor I conquer he gravity of the entire earth.

Cute ... true even I guess you could also say that you surmounted the gravitational influences of the Moon and Sun and the entire universe. (Of course it's not a one-way influence either - though that depends upon assumptions of how gravity operates ... but still, congrats!).

[austintorn@aol.com]

Yes, but conquering the morning bed gravity is another matter.

[labelwench]

Designing a bed with an electronic lift, programmed to one's alarm clock should be a snap. Have your favorite music greet you while remaining in bed becomes the harder thing to do, as the bed surface gently inclines just enough to make it difficult to remain recumbent.

Following the path of least resistance, gravity may thus be overcome.

The parents of teenagers seem like a ready-made market, lol.....