Does God really exist in any form?

[hawkingfan1]

For years Philosophers have been arguing whether god exists. If Jesus gave us our free will then God must not exist, If god exists then we have no free will. If God is omnipotent and knows our past present and future then how can we have free will to make our own decisions?

[SB_UK]

For years Philosophers have been arguing whether god exists. If Jesus gave us our free will then God must not exist, If god exists then we have no free will. If God is omnipotent and knows our past present and future then how can we have free will to make our own decisions?

For years Philosophers have been arguing whether god exists.

words -
did they agree on a definition for God first?

If Jesus gave us our free will then God must not exist ...

Gave us directionality.
Spending some time defining God is all important before one expects meaningful communication to take place.

If God is omnipotent ...

... effectively omnipotent.

knows our past present and future

real-izes (makes real) our present (our current present was once our future, becomes our past).
real-izes (realises) bears overlap with 'knows' (the word).

The confusion arises due to the games words play.

We're attempting to communicate using abstract concepts -
- and failing to realise that
(in contrast to objects such as a chair or dog) -
- and failing to realise that
we have no understanding of how our communicating partner is understanding the exact same (abstract) words.

... how can we have free will to make our own decisions?

'God' defines a distribution
- not where one lies in the distribution.

~*~

I wouldn't have phrased your post as you did
- this means that I have a different perspective to you.

Accordingly - it's entirely possible that I have misinterpreted your question.

~*~

Does God exist?
Something from effectively nothing can be made to fit some definition of God if we must.

Do we have Free will?
effectively.
Explanation
We cannot live without oxygen -
don't get hung up on it though.

If we imagine 'free will' as sight -
then we (our species) are effectively gaining sight
(from previously being blind)
(the metaphor of 'waking up' is often used to describe just this process
also
eg Husker Du - New Day Rising).

~*~

A simple one sentence reply to your question.

There is a God (effectively)
(though definition of the word is everything here)
and we have free will (effectively)
(though definition of the word is everything here).

[SteveA]

For years Philosophers have been arguing whether god exists. If Jesus gave us our free will then God must not exist, If god exists then we have no free will. If God is omnipotent and knows our past present and future then how can we have free will to make our own decisions?

Pretend for a moment that you could step outside yourself and see everything that you have, are or will or could ever be. Everything that defines "you" including all the possibilities, in that moment is known.

Now would you want it to be any different? Could you think of a way that it could be different?

If one could not be satisfied with everything they are or could ever be, that would appear a sad state. So if we assume that there exists some scale at which everything that could ever define you is known, then from that perspective there is no free will and you are predetermined to be yourself with no choice. I personally don't even think a creator of the physical universe could define that, though there may be some creator of spirits and souls that may have created individuals, in some ways this doesn't matter - even if you were created and are predetermined to be 'stuck' with what you are, this is really not a limit as there's nothing more that could be than everything you could be (which could extend through thousands of lifetimes or whatever things are possible). I personally don't think I'd want to be everything anyway - because that includes having to take out the trash and make sure the gutters are clean. Being "limited" could have its advantages

Anyway, so even if you were created and predetermined to be something, that's not necessarily a problem and might even be something deserving of a "thank you". But even if you were not specifically created, you're still you, and predetermined to be whatever unknown possibilities that may be and how else could it or should it have been otherwise? (If there are limits, they exist in the imagination)

P.S.: I don't know specifically whether or not a biblical God exists, but I'm rather certain that to the extent people place lots of specific characteristics that limit what such a God could be, then that's not "The God" that's often intended to be referenced ... and I also assume that we likely could never know what the properties of such an ultimate God would be and probably couldn't even begin to write a sentence to describe such a being, if "being" is even an appropriate word. That's just my opinion - opinions differ. (One the other hand, the properties ascribed to various forms of these god-like properties as creative and energetic and all encompassing etc. appear to be real phenomenon that's possibly associated with consciousness itself. I have little idea whether or not a lot of the specific details past that are accurate ... I tend to be skeptical, but there does appear to be something like those properties at work continually and it's seen in physical phenomenon and thought etc. Just calling it consciousness seems to vague - it's not specifically anything, and it's not necessarily even the "highest" creative form so I don't really know what to say - there's an energy "food chain" that drives the universe and in that respect, there is no free will, but not everything is physical nor appears driven by it ... some things appear to just exist without explaination or cause or drive etc. Sorry, I wish I could describe this better but there's just a sea of unknowns "out there" and a biblical God with a lot of details attached is just one of those ... the fewer the details and solely creative, the more encompassing it is and the less the ability to define specifically what it is. It's seen via conscious perceptions, but it is not specifically consciousness, it's just the unknown and it's not necessarily more than a single thing, it just appears in multiple forms over time, it's creative but it's not necessarily the will of an individual in a physical sense, though it does closely correlate with a will ... hmmm ... the will of God as an unknown ... that doesn't sound too far off, though it's similarly mirrored in natural laws and consequences as unknowns so you could see it similar to evolutionary pressures and the dynamics of complex systems, but those are still specifics and "not it")

Anyway, I ramble as usual, but consider again - if you had some additional measure of free will, what would you select via. it and would or could it be anything more than something you already possess the ability to be - how could you determine something to exist beyond yourself and select it? At a minimum it would appear to simply select to become an unknown. Will only has utility relative to things that are already known states - if you've already experienced living in two different places, then you can select to return somewhere and know at least some of the characteristics to expect, but to use ones will to select something that is not part of their experience or knowledge is not something specifically controllable and is determined by the "unknown", whatever it may be, and that's a process of uncontrolled growth that is only known in hindsight as to what occured. Unless you can see beyond the things you've experienced and know, then yes, almost by definition you have no free will in what results from the selection from an unknown as it's determined by that unknown.

I know I've drifted off here an am mostly just "typing" out loud, but it appears that the options are:

1) Either be satisfied with what you are and can be - these are all products of past unknowns which were not selectable relative to some personal value, but instead selected from that unknown (or even "higher power", for people that prefer that terminology), but once you have them as part of your experiences, then you do have an ability to internally weigh them differently and build from them.

2) Be dissatisfied with everything you currently possess and grab yet another unknown. Recognize that this is still "yourself", but an unknown becoming that could be either said to be free will from a limited perspective, but could also be said to be predetermined from a larger perspective. (If you can't see the larger perspective though, then it's still free will, but it's not something you can select to be specifically good or bad or anything with specific details - it appears that ultimately though, at least over or within time, there may be no other choice but to add to your experiences as any finite collection of properties can only describe finite times. So it may be predetermined that the qualities that describe experiences become infinitely diverse).

3) Or recognize your limits and be satisfied that there's nothing more that you could be than all of these.

4) Or recognize your limits and be dissatisfied that there's nothing more that you could be than all of these. (And that appears a sad state)

or

5) Who knows? Unknowns are by definition unknowable ... and the definition may be accurate.

[SB_UK]

Do people wonder about God and 'free will' because of the fear that
'this is all there is' ?
~aka~
- boredom - ?
~aka~
- a reason to live - ?
something unexpected -

looking forwards to unwrapping one's Christmas presents -

- just that you've everything in the catalogue -

God and 'free will'
- hoping that the 'all new' catalogue'll be out just in time for your friends to use to choose something real nice 4 yuz.

[Mohan.C]

I guess one can say that god does exist. But none can be sure about the form.

[labelwench]

When we finally unravel the mysteries of the brain and the answer to what the 'emptiness' of space is comprised of, perhaps we shall better be able to address this question.

[austintorn@aol.com]

[jag]

Hi Hawk,

God exists or we would not.

We are all seperate pieces of God trying to find our
way back to the oneness from which we came.
Our free will allows us to choose what we see
and which path we take. We are the eyes of God,
created and spread across the universe so that
God could become aware of itself.

jag

[Drifter]

For years Philosophers have been arguing whether god exists. If Jesus gave us our free will then God must not exist, If god exists then we have no free will. If God is omnipotent and knows our past present and future then how can we have free will to make our own decisions?

God exists as all forms(bondage), yet, is
Contained by none (boundless).

The nature of energy's vibrational rate, in all forms. . . . has room for mankind.

At the quantum/atomic scale:
LOOK! It's a particle (contracted/'yoked'=union),
Don't Look, it's a wave (energy-fluctuation/free-flowing creation/).

Is the picture the painter thereof?
Is the creature the creator thereof?

Can the witness be witnessed?

Such is the paradox of the ineffible/unknowable.

Between the known and the unknown realms (universes) a 'certain static' occurs known as the act of creation.

In space, it is known as A Space Torus.

[melanie]

Rumi asks God:

"Why won't you answer my longing?"

And God answers:

"I am the longing."