[RascalPuff]

'Is There Really Time?' What is Time? What is space. What is motion?'
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The question of whether or not anything or consideration really exists is an endemically popular tonic. ('Maybe we're a hallucination. Maybe everything is nothing'.)

A lot of seriously proffered equivocation occurs in glib denouncements of the existence of anything, particularly with regard to whatever spatial issue of 'truth': space and/or time.

As though Plato was not a student of Socrates, and that each and both of them did not long ago put to rest, the rasberry dispirited vanity of such allegedly 'unanswerable questions & unresolvable riddles'.

The Western Civilization marked discarding of 'reality' has long been a (an alleged Eastern Civilization inspired) ploy for those who avert the responsibility of recognizing and acknowledging it.
Euclidiean and Pythagorean geometry and pi r as well as E= MC squared would and do exist in fact, with or without anthropomorphic existence or realization. The physical universe is as indifferent to humanity as the mathematics and philosophy that irrevocably and eternally prove 'truth', whether or not idle individuals deign to acknowledge such realities - such eternal trutns - or not...

THE (Stubborn) MYTHOLOGY OF ARBITRARY ('Who knows?') SPACE & TIME:
The present standard of measurement for space is said to have been determined by a King who extended his arm and hand and pronounced that the distance between the tip of his nose to the end of his index finger would henceforth be the definitional standard, now called a 'yard'.
Divisible into three feet. Each foot divisible into 12 inches, each inch divisible into innumerable sub-divisions... (Re: 'Xeno's Paradox')

This (unarguably) capricious determination of the value of space, unfortunately brought about a misunderstanding that the existence and/or value of time is likewise arbitrary (a 'human invention') - just as the - above described - value of space was determined by arbitrary means.

(People did not invent motion, space or time. Words for those conditions, yes, but, not the existential conditions themselves.)

Whereas, space - what we have only recently learned to be inseparable from time (Yes. Minkowski was right - contrary to a popular - 'New Age' - school of thought saying otherwise); philologically evolving from 'space and time', to 'space-time', would still in fact exist, whether humans existed, to observe, measure or ambivalently standardize it or not (There are arguments that there is no universe before a given person arrives here and there will be no universe when such an argumentive person leaves. Such contentions are bonkers of course).

(Moving Right Along. Racing & weaving through and between the timing and spacing.)
The formal definition of time is synonymous with motion, and conversely.
Motion occurs in space; within which space-time is the interval between two or more events. The reason Einstein modified Newtonian Classic Mechanical translation of 'Time and Space', to the Relativistic expression of space-time.

Repeat: There cannot be time without space, and conversely - much as there is no magnetism without electricity, or electricity without magnetism: therefore equals electromagnetism. (Monopoles - electricity or magnetism independent of <non concurrent with> the other, have yet to be found or proven. The same is true of 'particles', 'black holes', the 'big bang theory', and bastardized thermodynamic interpretations lurching to the myth of an 'inevitable', 'universal entropic heat death'...)

As previously reviewed:
Terrestrial time standards (as a down-to-earth - relatively local - example) are based on astronomical motions of the planet(s) through space around the sun.
A planetary year equals its completion of a 360 degree arc - round trip - about the sun (Which, itself is traveling at some 256 miles per second, bound toward Vega).
An earth month of 30 days is 1/12th of a year.
A week is 1/4th of that month.
A day is 1/7th of that week.
An hour is 1/24th of a day.
A minute is 1/60th of an hour.
A second is 1/60th of a minute...
Consequently, a second of time - for unavoidable example - is also 18 1/2 miles of space: traveled by the earth, in its annual orbit around the sun. (There are those who would and do argue that there's no such thing as 'speed', or, 'a mile per hour' - these are included among the philosophically floundering misanthropes at issue here...)

A 24 hour day is based on the rotational motion of the earth on it's own axis. The circumference of the earth is just over 24,000 miles; that is how fast the earth is spinning - per hour. Proving very simply and elegantly that space, time and motion are synonymous - no singular facet of this triangular consideration existing without the 'other two'...
Time has come today from the past to the present and future. ABC, Moments 1, 2, 3; etceteras, squared...
Einstein's 'Non-Absolute Relativistic 4-D space-time.'
What it is:
Time, furthermore, in a physically expanding universe of 4 dimensions, is shorter and faster in smaller, past (microcosmic) spaces. and, slower (dilated) in future (macrocosmic) larger spaces; when compared to present time at any given moment of an observer in the eternal present: exactly between small-fast-space and large-slow-space.

In a 4-dimensional (physically expanding universe) a *square mile is not the same spatial size, when compared with itself; from the present: relative to (smaller, more dense) past or (larger, less dense) future 4-D expanding physical matter, and (causing the observed - non 'big bang' initiated expansion of space - Hubbles expanding, 'red shift', Universe.)

Neither therefore, is 60 *miles per hour (or 186,282 m.p.s. - the speed of light; '*celeritas constant <* C >) always the same relative speed. Nor is a year, month, week, day, hour or second, always the same comparative duration in the Present ( when compared with itself) in the physically expanding universe's Past or Future.
Proving among other things that the value of time varies with the value of space it occurs in.
Refer (the cause of) relativistic 'time dilation.' And relativistic 'non-absolute time'.
Relatively slow time occurring in relatively larger spaces; relatively fast time occurring in relatively smaller spaces...
The covariant relativity of time values - resulting in 'non-absolute time and space'.
For which, until now, there are not even any failed explanations.
In a 4-D (physically as well as spatially expanding) universe, the value of time and space (4-D space-time) inevitably varies, from coordinate system to coordinate system.

The speed of light for example, is ever-increasing, while remaining constant: relative to the coordinate system in which it originates and from which it is measured.
The value of time being covariant with the smaller and larger - earlier and later - 4-D space-times it occurs and/or is measured in."

Thank you for reading this missive.
- RP

[mkirkpatrick]

Again another fine thread my friend,now to strip this thread-bare-so to speak,we need
but to look at what we think is there?Reality by the very nature of the word,understood
at great depth,can only be that which IS,and is timeless,changeless,and motionless,
thereby eternal and ominipresent.

That unfortunately lets out time,space,motion,all of which are temporal,relative,and basically a work of fiction played out on our very limited senses.The everpresent eternal
now is basically the reality we live and move and play in,until we wake up,put aside our
childish comforting notions,and adorn the garb of an adult,and see the reality as it IS!


The universe-relative-exists as a state of mind,and is a illusion,change your mind,and the universe follows suit!



regards michael.

[RascalPuff]

Dear Michael:
Are you suggesting a present with no past or future, again? No continuum? No events but one event?

Best regards,
- RP

[N0B0DY]

I read the missive, and failed to find any substantive means of refuting illusory time, space and motion.

Following the implications of the thread, and knowing relative points are required for illusory effects to manifest, we run into serious reality issues when we propose time is intervals between events because then we must ask what the events are themselves if not intervals of undetectible events.

The earth doesn't exist without a north and south pole, but north and south can't exist without an imaginary absolute equatorial division, otherwise there would be no difference between north and south.

Now, again, following the implication of there being no monopoles, any conceivable point, whether it be within the earth or outer space, must follow the polarity law which would also require an imaginary division of poles.

Therefore everywhere and/or everything (all relative points) must be rendered as imaginary perspectives of non-dimensional points.

[mkirkpatrick]

Originally Posted by RascalPuff Dear Michael: Are you suggesting a present with no past or future, again? No continuum? No events but one event? Best regards, - RP

Basically yes! The NOW,is the eternal now,it is always now,and cannot be otherwise,to
suggest any other is folly and foolishness.

A thousand billion centuries,are but a blink of the eye to the Absolute.?



regards michael.

[north]

Originally Posted by mkirkpatrick Basically yes! The NOW,is the eternal now,it is always now,and cannot be otherwise,to suggest any other is folly and foolishness. A thousand billion centuries,are but a blink of the eye to the Absolute.? regards michael.

I disagree

the FUTURE is the eternal.

since the NOW never really stands still. does it

[north]

[quote=RascalPuff;30954]'Is There Really Time?' What is Time? What is space. What is motion?'
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The question of whether or not anything or consideration really exists is an endemically popular tonic. ('Maybe we're a hallucination. Maybe everything is nothing'.)

A lot of seriously proffered equivocation occurs in glib denouncements of the existence of anything, particularly with regard to whatever spatial issue of 'truth': space and/or time.

As though Plato was not a student of Socrates, and that each and both of them did not long ago put to rest, the rasberry dispirited vanity of such allegedly 'unanswerable questions & unresolvable riddles'.

The Western Civilization marked discarding of 'reality' has long been a (an alleged Eastern Civilization inspired) ploy for those who avert the responsibility of recognizing and acknowledging it.
Euclidiean and Pythagorean geometry and pi r as well as E= MC squared would and do exist in fact, with or without anthropomorphic existence or realization. The physical universe is as indifferent to humanity as the mathematics and philosophy that irrevocably and eternally prove 'truth', whether or not idle individuals deign to acknowledge such realities - such eternal trutns - or not...

THE (Stubborn) MYTHOLOGY OF ARBITRARY ('Who knows?') SPACE & TIME:
The present standard of measurement for space is said to have been determined by a King who extended his arm and hand and pronounced that the distance between the tip of his nose to the end of his index finger would henceforth be the definitional standard, now called a 'yard'.
Divisible into three feet. Each foot divisible into 12 inches, each inch divisible into innumerable sub-divisions... (Re: 'Xeno's Paradox')

This (unarguably) capricious determination of the value of space, unfortunately brought about a misunderstanding that the existence and/or value of time is likewise arbitrary (a 'human invention') - just as the - above described - value of space was determined by arbitrary means.

(People did not invent motion, space or time. Words for those conditions, yes, but, not the existential conditions themselves.)

Whereas, space - what we have only recently learned to be inseparable from time (Yes. Minkowski was right - contrary to a popular -

I disagree

space is the ROOM , allowance , for an object to exist , time has NO bearing on this ROOM allowance, or SPACE.

for the essence of Time is movement. and the essence of this movement is the actions and/or interactions between objects

[RascalPuff]

'north' inserted the below quote
Quote:
Whereas, space - what we have only recently learned to be inseparable from time (Yes. Minkowski was right - contrary to a popular -


'north' continued:

I disagree

space is the ROOM , allowance , for an object to exist , time has NO bearing on this ROOM allowance, or SPACE.

for the essence of Time is movement. and the essence of this movement is the actions and/or interactions between objects

_____________________________

Dear north:
In your above qualified disagreement, you use the word 'object', twice.

The definition for an object is 'some thing' (that may be seen or felt - an entity). There is no known condition of anything that does not move or contain constituents (molecules, atoms, electrons, sub atomic paricles) that do not move (Absolute zero unachieved and unobserved). Motion is synonymous with time; is consequently synonymous with space within which movement occurs.

Regards
-RP

[north]

[quote=RascalPuff;31325]'north' inserted the below quote
Quote:
Whereas, space - what we have only recently learned to be inseparable from time (Yes. Minkowski was right - contrary to a popular -


'north' continued:

I disagree

space is the ROOM , allowance , for an object to exist , time has NO bearing on this ROOM allowance, or SPACE.

for the essence of Time is movement. and the essence of this movement is the actions and/or interactions between objects

time is a RESULTANT of either a cause or affect by actions and/or interactions of objects.

_____________________________

Dear north: In your above qualified disagreement, you use the word 'object', twice. The definition for an object is 'some thing' (that may be seen or felt - an entity). There is no known condition of anything that does not move or contain constituents (molecules, atoms, electrons, sub atomic paricles) that do not move (Absolute zero unachieved and unobserved).

true

Motion is synonymous with time; is consequently synonymous with space within which movement occurs. Regards -RP

I disagree here

motion and time could be construd as synomymous but they are not.

for really the essence of any measurement of time is based on motion of the objects themselves , whether we look at their individual atomic structure or as molecules , and as well their macro-dynamics. ( suns , planets , moons etc.)

time in and of its self plays NO bearing on the out-come of any action and/or interaction by any of these objects , micro-macro considered.

for instance without any prior knowledge of an object could you use time ALONE to say what their behaviour would be ? absolutely not.

you must first understand the actions of object it self or objects interactions with of objects.( molecules) then time comes into the equation.

[north]

[quote=north;31327][quote=RascalPuff;31325]'north' inserted the below quote
Quote:
Whereas, space - what we have only recently learned to be inseparable from time (Yes. Minkowski was right - contrary to a popular -


'north' continued:

I disagree

space is the ROOM , allowance , for an object to exist , time has NO bearing on this ROOM allowance, or SPACE.

for the essence of Time is movement. and the essence of this movement is the actions and/or interactions between objects

_____________________________



true





I disagree here

motion and time could be construd as synomymous but they are not.

for really the essence of any measurement of time is based on motion of the objects themselves , whether we look at their individual atomic structure or as molecules , and as well their macro-dynamics. ( suns , planets , moons etc.)

time in and of its self plays NO bearing on the out-come of any action and/or interaction by any of these objects , micro-macro considered.

for instance without any prior knowledge of an object could you use time ALONE to say what their behaviour would be ? absolutely not.

you must first understand the actions of object it self or objects interactions with of objects.( whether micro or macro object) then time comes into the equation.