Re: Time cannot exist without matter (mass) and motion -
11-08-2007, 12:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakshya
Hey guys, today I found a great thought experiment to prove that time can't exist without mass and motion. It can be found by proving photon's rest mass = 0. I don't know the actual derivation. So, I have made my own derivation (this is the one I made to prove photon's m = 0 to my friend). Let's start:
E=mc^2 (Rest energy equation)
E/c^2=m=0 (To prove)
We know that c^2 is a constant so if we want to prove m=0, we will have to prove E=0. Let's take another formula:
E=hv
So, we can prove it by this equation. As we are taking the photon to be at rest, there is no frequency at rest. It will have no frequency. So, we will get E=h*0=0. Putting it in the previous equation, we get m=0. That's how I proved it. But today I thought that in this way everything at rest will vanish from the universe.
Okay let's take this experiment. Suppose we stop every matter in the universe. Then everything will vanish according to the above proof. So, anybody outside the universe will never be able to sense that there's a thing like time.
And this state of stopping everything can be achieved by stopping time. Everything will come to rest and will vanish from the universe.
Hence, we can derive that mass and motion can only exist when time exists or conversely time only exists when mass and motion exist. If time exists and mass and motion don't exist, then we can never feel time. We get that feeling when anything comes into motion. So, both are true.
Thouhts please.
I agree with your concept that time cannot exist without motion completely - it fits my gut sense. I can't accept the mathmatics yet, until you show me a photon that is not moving. Another way of looking at it, without anything at all moving, I'm convinced time would not exist, because there would be no way of differentiating 2 successive measurements (everything would be in the same spot/state).
What logically follows is another thought experiment. What if the 'fabric/surface' of our spacetime is actually moving at the speed of light (C)? Could that explain why a photon's rest mass is 0? Because it is at 'relative rest' to the fabric (it would also explain why 'C' is such a special velocity, when relativity says no particular reference frame is special)? Could it also explain why mass can't reach the speed of light, i.e. it must for some reason, always have some velocity difference relative to the fabric, or it's mass becomes non-existant/unmeasureable/zero/infinite, i.e. pure energy (don't forget the real ramifications of re-normalization here)?
Jeff.
Last edited by NotStein : 11-08-2007 at 12:46 AM.
Reason: clarification;sp.; addition
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Re: Time cannot exist without matter (mass) and motion -
11-08-2007, 04:06 AM
A photon without motion will not exist.. it will disintegrate, unless it is preserved by external means.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NotStein
I agree with your concept that time cannot exist without motion completely - it fits my gut sense. I can't accept the mathmatics yet, until you show me a photon that is not moving. Another way of looking at it, without anything at all moving, I'm convinced time would not exist, because there would be no way of differentiating 2 successive measurements (everything would be in the same spot/state).
What logically follows is another thought experiment. What if the 'fabric/surface' of our spacetime is actually moving at the speed of light (C)? Could that explain why a photon's rest mass is 0? Because it is at 'relative rest' to the fabric (it would also explain why 'C' is such a special velocity, when relativity says no particular reference frame is special)? Could it also explain why mass can't reach the speed of light, i.e. it must for some reason, always have some velocity difference relative to the fabric, or it's mass becomes non-existant/unmeasureable/zero/infinite, i.e. pure energy (don't forget the real ramifications of re-normalization here)?
Jeff.
Re: Time cannot exist without matter (mass) and motion
Re: Time cannot exist without matter (mass) and motion -
11-08-2007, 05:35 AM
Quote:
Rather than being philosophical lets look at practically at my post. Then you will get the essence of it..
Not sure what you consider 'being philosophical' to be, but philosophy is all about looking practically, at the essence of things. A 'Forum' is an arena, a place, where like-minded people can gather to discuss the philosophical implications of things in order to determine their Truths. Whatever makes you think that discussions at a forum contain no philosophy?
When we stand on a soap-box, we must be extremely careful not to slip!
pif.
People look after the things they have affection for. It is thus essential that we learn to have affection for the planet that sustains us.
"The sense of threat from every quarter of what is known as the Establishment – which is to say, of modern civilization – is not altogether a put-on or an act for many of these young folk, but an actual condition of soul. The break-off is real, and what is being bombed and blown up outside are actual symbols of interior fears." - Joseph Campbell
Re: Time cannot exist without matter (mass) and motion
Re: Time cannot exist without matter (mass) and motion -
11-08-2007, 06:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dipayankar
A photon without motion will not exist
This is simply "by definition" if you accept special relativity. Bodies travelling at the speed of light must always do so, and thus it makes no sense to talk about a photon at rest.
Re: Time cannot exist without matter (mass) and motion
Re: Time cannot exist without matter (mass) and motion -
11-08-2007, 10:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJA
It is not so important that we understand the relationship or relativeness of measure to a coordinate system of Einstein's, or with the more conventional physics of Newton's time or space constants, or even the relativity of an object to the simplicity of a ruler; what is important is that we understand that whatever we measure, relative to whatever, measure is only probable or uncertain at best. That is the real issue. MJA
MJA, that is a total un-scientific lie. I'd suggest you start studying physics, math and logic, as pertains to real substance and motion___The true fundamentals of reality...
You have no science MJA, only meta-science, which is not reality. Any meta-realities are just as described, Meta=Beyond, beyond reality, way out into sci-fi... Sensible people make the choice between believing___and knowing, i.e., hear-say, and direct cognitive seeing...
You have to join the clan of the sighted, to know...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dip
I would like to disagree. Even between two countries like US and India, we have two systems. You like to measure distances in miles, we measure in Kilometers. Same with our country and our neighbouring country Pakistan... so there is a lot of difference in measure
The conversion is identical...
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJA
Time does not exist without the uncertain measure of mankind.
Yeah sure, nature doesn't exist without mankind...? You fail to understand the fundamentals of reality...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neutralino
This is simply "by definition" if you accept special relativity. Bodies travelling at the speed of light must always do so, and thus it makes no sense to talk about a photon at rest.
No-one yet knows the photon truths... It's, at present, just speculation, upon more speculation... The quanta is open to further investigations, such as deep special relativity...
Lloyd
"To develop the skill of correct thinking is in the first place to learn what you have to disregard. In order to go on, you have to know what to leave out; this is the essence of effective thinking." Kurt Godel "Time and space are modes in which we think and not conditions in which we live." Albert Einstein "The uncertainty principle is an absolute, finite, universal constant." L.G. "The tick-tick-tick of the cesium atom is a sliding-time-scaler constant of all finite universal motion." L.G.
Re: Time cannot exist without matter (mass) and motion
Re: Time cannot exist without matter (mass) and motion -
11-08-2007, 11:29 AM
The quote of the day Lloyd, just for you.
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." Professor Einstein
= MJA
The truth of everything is less than one inch,
it is only equal and the lion is one.
One is free when the door is opened,
education has the key.
=
Re: Time cannot exist without matter (mass) and motion
Re: Time cannot exist without matter (mass) and motion -
11-08-2007, 12:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJA
The quote of the day Lloyd, just for you.
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." Professor Einstein
= MJA
Only true in one exaggerated sense MJA, the extreme conditions of the minimal effects of relative motions, which can most be ignored by man, and is completely ignored by nature. Nature functions absolutely, in all nature's truest self-motions... It's only foolish man, that needs to use co-ordinate systems to understand her mathematically, as his math-measure is very lowly evolved___Yet...
Mathematics is not the only way to know nature, MJA... If one opens one's eyes, there's a real world of nature to behold. Many physical experiments need no mathematics, to prove. They are a-priori self-evident knowledge/logic systems...
Lloyd
"To develop the skill of correct thinking is in the first place to learn what you have to disregard. In order to go on, you have to know what to leave out; this is the essence of effective thinking." Kurt Godel "Time and space are modes in which we think and not conditions in which we live." Albert Einstein "The uncertainty principle is an absolute, finite, universal constant." L.G. "The tick-tick-tick of the cesium atom is a sliding-time-scaler constant of all finite universal motion." L.G.
Re: Time cannot exist without matter (mass) and motion
Re: Time cannot exist without matter (mass) and motion -
11-08-2007, 12:42 PM
Do I note a contratiction here Lloyd?
First you state math is a true fundamental of reality,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lloyd Gillespie
MJA, that is a total un-scientific lie. I'd suggest you start studying physics, math and logic, as pertains to real substance and motion___The true fundamentals of reality...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lloyd Gillespie
Lloyd
Then you state that mathematics should be ignored.
"Only true in one exaggerated sense MJA, the extreme conditions of the minimal effects of relative motions, which can most be ignored by man,"
Should I Lloyd, study or ignore the mathematical uncertain measure of the scientific physics of the relative motion of nature? What do you suggest here?
= MJA
The truth of everything is less than one inch,
it is only equal and the lion is one.
One is free when the door is opened,
education has the key.
=
Re: Time cannot exist without matter (mass) and motion
Re: Time cannot exist without matter (mass) and motion -
11-09-2007, 03:42 PM
And you only completely mis-interpret people's words and ideas, MJA... There were no contradictions, except in your mind...
Lloyd
"To develop the skill of correct thinking is in the first place to learn what you have to disregard. In order to go on, you have to know what to leave out; this is the essence of effective thinking." Kurt Godel "Time and space are modes in which we think and not conditions in which we live." Albert Einstein "The uncertainty principle is an absolute, finite, universal constant." L.G. "The tick-tick-tick of the cesium atom is a sliding-time-scaler constant of all finite universal motion." L.G.
Re: Time cannot exist without matter (mass) and motion
Re: Time cannot exist without matter (mass) and motion -
11-09-2007, 03:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lloyd Gillespie
No-one yet knows the photon truths... It's, at present, just speculation, upon more speculation... The quanta is open to further investigations, such as deep special relativity...
Which is why I said "if you accept special relativity". What is "deep special relativity?" I've heard of doubly/deformed special relativity, which basically says that not only is there a speed constant in all frames, but there is also a length (the planck length). Is deep special relativity the same as this?
Linear Mode
