[austintorn@aol.com]

Perhaps if a quark decays, like protons are supposed to do, then the Universe is not eternal.

If something was eternal, though, it would have no "how" or "why" and would already be surpassing "infinity" in age.

Maybe something like the possibility state of quantum world is eternal and can produce "substance".

[Profpat]

Hi Austin;

Actually there is no evidence for proton decay. In theory it should, and physicist put an estimated fastest half life of 10 years to the 35th power, but they admit, even though in theory it's supposed to, in fact it may not.

Back to our eternal, yet created universe.

Best,

Pat

P.S. From Wiki:Recent experiments at the Super-Kamiokande water Cherenkov radiation detector in Japan indicate that if protons decay at all, their half-life must be at least 1035 years.( that is 10 to the 35th power, it came out as 1035)

[Fripro]

Pat. Thank you for your welcome. I am suprised to see that others have thought about the difference in the so called published width of the Universe with respect to it age.

As I am a ardent believer that the Universe always was and always will be, I can only not understand the difference in the width of the universe and its so called big bang age--unless. . . .

One believes that vewing photo graphs in stero, from the Hubble telescope indicates that the Universe is rotating--thus the difference in the width to age measurement.

However if one also says the Universe is eternal, then the big bang is only a local bang, and the cyclic idea of the Universe is due to its rotation --which by the way also give us a complicated formula for gravity "g"

However none of it makes sense unless the Universe has an atmosphere dark matter, and its vortes galaxies its dark energy.

[Profpat]

I too think the universe could well be eternal. But as I mentioned before I also believe in a big bang, as there is much evidence to support that theory. This seeming paradox can be explained through a cyclical model of the universe. Forever expanding and contracting. From Wikipedia:

Singularities are avoided because the observed consequences of "Big Crunches" never reach zero size. In fact, should the universe begin a "big crunch" sort of process, string theory dictates that the universe could never be smaller than the size of a string, at which point it would actually begin expanding.

Best to you Fripro,

Pat

[Hadesjam]

hello ppl.. this is my first time in this forum..
ive read all the theories and explanations here and they all are very posible and interesting, i have my own... similar to some different from others..

one of my theories is.. that anything cant come from anything therefore there was always something, it doesnt matter its form.. it was, it is and it will always be energy, to me energy is anything that moves.. particles move.. everything moves.. even if there was an object in the universe that stands still ..that object at some point when it formed it was moving bcuz its particles were being put together randomly or in order or both.. it doesnt matter.. now this object has a or ocupies a place in space whatever its reality is by reality i mean dimention, since another theory i have is that there are many dimensions within one universe but thats another subject, anyways since its ocupying a place in this space it means that it is interactin with its surroundings, example here on earth even though one human being in america isnt directly touching another one in europe there is a conection.. which is air per say.. or the same earth.. one is standing in one place the other one in another but they both are touching the earth or the air.. so there is a connection there right?.. ok this object being interacting with whats around it then it creates friction.. with whatever kind of energy that there is within that dimension or reality, now this huge dimention transforms this energy lil by lil in an extremely long OR maybe just maybe really short proccess and it turns into another dimension or reality, however there is a connection that made this possible and that is the fact that energy CANT be destroyed nor CREATED but only CHANGED, a form of these energy/dimensional connectors *how i called them* might be BALCKHOLES maybe there are other forms and we havent discover them yet.. therefore the universe in which we live in in only ONE full of MAYBE (not necesary for its eternal existance) infinite dimensions or realities that all put together form this vast and never ending UNIVERSE, even if the universe runs out of this form of energy like the stars..galaxies .. gasses.. etc.. it is in this conditions where a new form of energy takes place bcuz even if the stars explode, and galaxies collapse with each other distroying everything in their path and making all these fuels to burn till theres no more of them in that form at least and then in the coldness of the universe there would still be the remainings; by pure logic; the left overs, but these left overs even in their unimaginable cold eviroment would still have motion, particles moving and interacting with each other since the unverse is endless this objects would find themselves in an eternal free fall now in this free fall the particles are touching whatever is in space at that moment like per say a rock when it falls its touching the air.. so all these particles would be touching something ,, what type of energy? i dunno .. but something and that friction.. is maintaining the existance of energy and since there is no end for this particles to stop falling this everlasting friction proves that energy is forever and has always been there just like the universe, knowing that the universe = energy ..
now even if there is solid ground where all these particles land, then at the moment of landing it transforms this energy into something else just like the rock would do when it hits the ground, now this ground by logic is ocupying space simply bcuz of the fact that it's there (theoricaly),, now how thick is it?.. eternaly thick?..ok fine then we go back to the very begining of this which is the object thats suposibly not moving.. but we have already prove that wrong and since it cant be a motionless object that means that energy exists there.. now if that solid ground isnt eternal then.. when it comes to an end there has to be somethin after that end of that energy form, which obviously it is interacting with, and so on..so that makes the universe eternal, bcuz energy will always be there. no matter its form.

all the different dimensions interact within the same universe in which we live in..and the kind of friction that these dimensions create we cannot feel it OR maybe we do feel it but we arent aware of it, thats when the spiritual stuff kicks in, which spiritual in a sense where we all are connected and whatever happens in any dimension affects us since we have a factor in common and that is ENERGY, therefore information is always traveling in different forms throughout existance now i have a question that i still dont have an answer to,

**lets remember one thing tho in my theory dimensions can exist and then dissapear fussioning with others and creating new dimensions and destroying others however its still energy in an eternal changing proccess**
being the counsciousness subconsciousness and unconsciousness * i call it trinity simply cuz it sounds cool to me hehe* different types of energy that are created in our heads by our neurons and so on, what if the very first form of energy which has always been there was the one who transformed itself into these other dimensions..lets say that this energy was always there *after all its energy* but as it was slowly changing it came to a point where it was changing into infinite forms which i call dimensions and everything in them, like solid things like planets, stars, and different forms of life, now this trinity manifest its true form thru teh diferent forms of LIFE **by life i mean things that have some level of thinking or of judgement no matter how small or huge the level of it is in different kinds of living beings per say a dog and a human.. material things with different level of that trinity which is energy**
therefore wecould say that all there is was and will be was made by this trinity energy which is a thinking one, therefore we are part of its intelligence by having a piece of it in us, therefore we are one with it, therefore there is a chance that the connection btween everything SOMEHOW would allow us to know anything we want no matter if that is a trillion light years away from this physical from in teh one and only UNIVERSE which would allow me to say that MAYBE we can interact with other dimensions using the trinity thats in us and connect us to everything else,
now maybe when we have this physical form and then we die obviously we change into other forms until one day trillions of years later our physical form changes completly into a trinity energy form and it goes back to this original form,, obviously i know that if energy changes then its never the same but you guys know what i mean when i say original form.. lets say that the universe was always in one dimension of the trinity and as time passed it went changing and creating different dimensions **but remember that the trinity dimension has always been there** so that trinity dimensional energy existance would be the original form that im talking about, and then at that point everything forms again like a new spark that iniciated the big bang per instance. That is when everything has united and all the knowledge and absolutely everything that there is would be in one, like we come from something and we go back to it, i dont wanna say the G. word cuz i dont wanna get banned from this forum which i find interesting, however im not religios, im neutral i love science and i base my thoughts on that.. but that has lead me to this question, would that trinity be the ONE? which we all are and make part of and its simply manifesting itself in infinite forms?.

hmm.. but if that first dimension isnt the trinity but something else .. lets call it *IT with capital letters hehe*.. that IT since its energy it was shaping itslef and at some point energy change to the trinity energy and thats how i could explain where that trinity energy comes from but since IT has no consciousness, subconsciousness nor unconsciousness then its not intelligent so it couldnt be a G. or the ONE **the ONE in a sense as the ONE in the last theory said*
so in this case then we could say that we come from IT.. hehe.. funny huh?..

HOWEVER how do we know that that IT was first?.. maybe the trinity energy **since its inteligent ** say wait in order for me to transform into all these other things i have to change into an IT but calculating that after watever amount of years that IT energy transform into a trinity again however that IT is still existing and this trinity energy manifests itself thru it and this IT energy is the one who makes possible everything esle to exist for the trinity energy to occupy space into them.

confusing.. but in this theory would would u think came first? the IT energy or the Trinity energy?.... i dunno..

i have to go though.. lemme know what u think... i was typing this at work and im in a hurry so its not perfectly exposed but you guys have more or less an idea of some of my theories..

[austintorn@aol.com]

What the energy forms is transitory, but the energy, no matter what comes and goes as forms, is eternal, since many eternities have passed since the 'time' of no beginning, plus if there could have been NOTHING, it would still be around. TO BE is the natural state, not Nil.

[joshua]

pmI disagree, I see the universe as a story with a beginning, middle and end. I see the universe as a particle in transition to a wave and if protons didn't decay then they should not be able to be broken apart. The Heisenberg principle dictates that because there is a mechanism to show that energy can break the protons apart then a percent of them will break apart naturally, the why this would happen is the deepest level of understanding.

We have been imprisoned by other peoples false logic, we have bought it, hook, line and sinker. What most if not all people do not understrand is the underlying mechanism that explains how all mechanisms of nature work. Many accept as fact that the fastest a message can be transmitted is the speed of light, but in reality we deal everyday with processes that excede the speed of light to the point of blank speed? and we can't even see our nose in front of our face. I think I'll save this one for a while. If you are really interested then PM me.

[Profpat]

Actually joshua, it appears the proton has no observed half life. This upset some physicists and so they proposed a half life to the proton to be AT LEAST: 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years. That is 10 to the 36th power.

Also if you look cross eyed, you can see your nose.

Best ,

Pat

[joshua]

Originally Posted by Profpat Actually joshua, it appears the proton has no observed half life. This upset some physicists and so they proposed a half life to the proton to be AT LEAST: 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years. That is 10 to the 36th power. Also if you look cross eyed, you can see your nose. Best , Pat

dear pat,
I know that. I stand by the assumption that a proton can be broken apart with accelerators and the Heisenberg principle

[joshua]

Originally Posted by joshua dear pat, I know that. I stand by the assumption that a proton can be broken apart with accelerators and the Heisenberg principle

Hey, one or two more things.
Once upon a time atoms were the smallest thing. Our knowledge of protons is as a baby knows calculus. It is comparative to living in the 1950's era and there is no Watson and Crick, yet. To predict the half life of a proton and not fully understand the mechanism of time is ironic, the birth of a proton is the key to understand how and why it might decay. To claim to accurately guess the half-life of a proton and then to assume the nature of gravity and time and acceleration and the effects of relativity in the quantum world, funny how it sounds to me. I find in my studies that the ones who know the least, boast arrogantly the most. Protons are an area of minimal true knowledge.