Proof that the universe is eternal?

[Cloudchaser]

Opps,this should have gone in the time and space topic. I hope it can be moved. Sorry.


Hope there are some Quantum Physicist guys out there.
Here is a theory I have had for awhile, I need input form an expert to see if it has any merit. From what I know of Quantum Physics and relativity it seems, on the surface, to be a reasonable argument for the universe being eternal (and some other connotations if it is correct)

First some background:
According to the current theories of the physical universe, the future of the universe is that it will end in either the big crunch (like a reversal of the big bang), or heat death (when all the energy created by the big bang runs down).
With the amount of matter known in the universe, the universe should keep expanding to heat death. But more matter is being discovered all the time and most Physicists think that the universe will eventually collapse in a big crunch and be crushed out of existence. Either way the universe ends as nothing or a dark cold universe where their is no more energy to produce suns or light.

Now some relativity:
If we were able to get on a spaceship and accelerate towards the speed of light, the theory of relativity says that time will begin to slow down relative to the folks back on earth. The closer we get to the speed of light the slower the time on our spaceship. Relativity says we cant go the speed of light, but if we were able to, once we were traveling at the speed of light, time would stand still on our spaceship relative to the time on earth.

Now some perspective:
So, here we are on our spaceship, going toward the speed of light. From our perspective time is not slowing down, everything seems normal to us. From our perspective, the time on earth is speeding up as we approach the speed of light! So imagine we are watching the folks on earth as we approach the speed of light... they are going faster and faster, like a video on fast forward... still closer to the speed of light, those folks are going so fast they just look like a blur. At very nearly the speed of light we cant even see them through our telescope, they are going so fast.

Now here's the clincher:
Once our spaceship reaches the speed of light, what happens to the folks back on earth? They have been going faster and faster as we approached the speed of light, and if they could see us we would be moving about slower and slower, until at the speed of light, we are frozen as time stands still. But, the folks on earth, well, how can I break the news. According to us, all time that ever was has already happened on earth! Its all over and done! relative to us, time on earth went so fast that at the time we reached the speed of light, time went so fast on earth it became infinite. That means it all happened at once. Sooooo.... that means, if the universe ENDS in a big crunch or heat death, that would have happened, relative to us.

Here is the theory:
We cant go the speed of light, BUT... photons go the speed of light all the time. Sooooo.... relative to us, time on a photon stands still, and relative to a photon.... speeding around at the speed of light... time on earth and the universe is infinite... which means relative to a photon, the big crunch or heat death have already happened.... BUT, that would mean photons could not exist! If the universe has ended in a big crunch or heat death, that means no more energy, no more light, no more photons. But still they exist! So this must mean that the universe doesn't end in heat death or the big crunch. The universe must be eternal.

Or an I missing something??

[Profpat]

Well your logic seems good Couldchaser but let me add a few thoughts.

Eternal means no beginning and no ending, your theory only talks about ending. In other words there could have been a beginning but no ending.

That time stops at the speed of light or its opposite in a black hole, only means while in that state it stops for that entity. Slow down the photon, or release it from the black hole and time starts again for that entity.

The heat death you talk about only means that all that will be left is photons. The photons will keep on existing.

My thought is that everything is made up of stings, and that we have a cyclic ( yes eternal ) universe. That when the big crunch occurs everything gets crunched down to a 1 dimensional Planck length string and when that happens since you can't crunch further BANG you start over again. This says our universe is created but eternal. No steady state.

Best to you,

Pat

[Cloudchaser]

Thanks Pat.
That photons are left at heat death is something I didn't know. That alone kills the theory.
Yes, string theory seems the go. I like the notion that at the end of the big crunch there still exist something in string form. The idea of the crunch down to the one dimensional plank length string, is that your idea or is it a current theory? If a current theory is there any info on it anywhere, I would like to get a handle on it. Thanks.
Will.

Well your logic seems good Couldchaser but let me add a few thoughts.

Eternal means no beginning and no ending, your theory only talks about ending. In other words there could have been a beginning but no ending.

That time stops at the speed of light or its opposite in a black hole, only means while in that state it stops for that entity. Slow down the photon, or release it from the black hole and time starts again for that entity.

The heat death you talk about only means that all that will be left is photons. The photons will keep on existing.

My thought is that everything is made up of stings, and that we have a cyclic ( yes eternal ) universe. That when the big crunch occurs everything gets crunched down to a 1 dimensional Planck length string and when that happens since you can't crunch further BANG you start over again. This says our universe is created but eternal. No steady state.

Best to you,

Pat

[Profpat]

Hi Couldchaser;

Actually, if all that is left of the universe is photons, the universe would still be neverending.

As far as the big crunch and string theory, I like the idea but it's not mine. Here is a blub from our friends at Wikipedia:
Singularities are avoided because the observed consequences of " big crunches" never reach zero size. In fact, should the universe begin a "big crunch" sort of process, string theory dictates that the universe could never be smaller than the size of a string, at which point it would actually begin expanding.

My own theory if you are interested is located at:
( http://www.toequest.com/forum/your-t...2803-idea.html ) You'll have to access a PDF file.

Best to you,

Pat

[dleviwing]

You may wish to rethink your understanding of “heat death” since heat is also “electromagnetic radiation” (photons).

[neutralino]

Now some relativity:
If we were able to get on a spaceship and accelerate towards the speed of light, the theory of relativity says that time will begin to slow down relative to the folks back on earth. The closer we get to the speed of light the slower the time on our spaceship. Relativity says we cant go the speed of light, but if we were able to, once we were traveling at the speed of light, time would stand still on our spaceship relative to the time on earth.

Your arguments are all based on this point; namely that if we were moving at the speed of light, we would see time stand still on our spaceship relative to the earth. However, here you say, quite rightly, that relativity does not hold in this circumstance. That is, a massive body cannot move at the speed of light, and there does not exist an inertial frame of reference at rest with respect to the photon. Thus, you cannot derive anything from this point of view.

As to the fate of the universe: I was going to write something, but figured I'll just link to this article, since John Baez says it a lot clearer than I can!

Opps,this should have gone in the time and space topic. I hope it can be moved. Sorry.

Finally, is this in the place you intended to post it now? I can't see if it's been moved since you added that comment or not!

[Cloudchaser]

Yes. This is the place for this post. thanks guys for your info.

Your arguments are all based on this point; namely that if we were moving at the speed of light, we would see time stand still on our spaceship relative to the earth. However, here you say, quite rightly, that relativity does not hold in this circumstance. That is, a massive body cannot move at the speed of light, and there does not exist an inertial frame of reference at rest with respect to the photon. Thus, you cannot derive anything from this point of view.

As to the fate of the universe: I was going to write something, but figured I'll just link to this article, since John Baez says it a lot clearer than I can!


Finally, is this in the place you intended to post it now? I can't see if it's been moved since you added that comment or not!

[MJA]

Oneday a spaceship will break the speed of light barrier, much like the speed of sound;
but rather than hearing a sonic boom, we'll see an optic flash!

=
MJA

[Fripro]

Both ancient Indian and Greek philosophy correctly realized that something is never created from nothing, ex nihilo, thus something has eternally existed.


First, we must look at the basic construction of the Universe and how it functions as our scientist and historians pictured it.


Current thinking says a new finding implies that the Universe is about 180 billion light-years wide, and 15.5 billion light-years old.

Of course, I believe the Universe is ageless, eternal

An important question must be raised about the Universe's age If the Universe is only 15.8 billion light-years old, how can the Universe be 180 Billion light-years across?


This exposes the error in the Universe age, and gives more proof that the Universe is ageless and the Big Bang is local. It can also mean that the rotating Universe always was and that its size is the same forever.

[Profpat]

Hi Fripro;

I have a few thoughts regarding your post.

I believe it's Dr. Guth's theory regarding spatial inflation( not to be confused with spatial expansion ) that attempts to account for the difference between a universe which is only 14 billion years old and yet 180 billion light years wide.

The Indian philosophy you mention actually believes the universe is eternal but cyclical. String theory also proposes that if there is a big crunch, you can't crunch it smaller than a Planck lenghth string, or it blows again. This is the theory I like, an eternal yet created universe.

I was going to welcome you to the forum, but I see you should welcome me.

Best to you,

Pat