[Lloyd Gillespie]

David, I agree the only proper way to proceed is to take it much slower, as the ideas are profound and take time to settle, as we seem to be coming at the problems and solutions from different aspects of the spectrum___you maybe, I don't know, from high temperature physics and myself from low temperature physics. If you prefer to change the post title, that's fine with me___I just want to boil out the facts. David, I've gone through this post to state where I have a few problems with the 3rd axiom. We will need to clarify this fundamental difference. I'm fully willing to listen to any scientific explanation, even conjectures, if that's what it takes to finally uncover the more hidden sciences. So please check out my points, and maybe we can proceed with the axioms, as I do agree this is the best way to proceed.

Originally Posted by dleviwing Hi Lloyd; May I suggest we start a little slower and take one issue at a time and keep our posts a reasonable size that can be responded to. Let’s start by looking at what we both, and hopefully others, recognize as flaws in the current BB and try to define the fundamental substance and its properties; Then we can go on to discuss the more complex issues. PRIOR TO THE UNIVERSE EVENT: As I see it, we have agreed on an axiomatic concept of existence that states: Axiom 1.. An infinite void or place does exist. (Absolute void) Axiom 2.. An entity that promotes physical phenomena exists. (Fundamental matter) We could call this substance “Dark Matter”, but dark matter is defined as producing gravity. At this phase there is no mechanism to produce gravity. So let’s go on and define our concepts of “FUNDAMENTAL PROPERTIES” of this substance. I have expressed one property as being the property of “Bonding”. In my view this is just a function that the substance will adhere to itself upon contact. You interpreted it as saying it had quantum field properties.[I was referring to linear quantum field properties, or really non-quantum properties___just linear motion___really just trying to see where our different definitions meet] Quantum interpretations do not come into play at this phase.[I agree] QED does not come into effect until the substance evolves into structure and interactions of structures.[I agree](thermodynamics[Is eternally present, IMO] and wave mechanics[linear wave mechanics is eternally present, IMO___absolute motion]) If this “Bonding” property is agreed upon, then we can state it as a third axiomatic concept of “SELF-AFFINITY”. If not, then let’s continue to discuss fundamental properties and debate our differences.[IMO, at the absolute fundamental level of universal evolution, what you are defining as self-affinity is too axiomatic, in and of itself, to be supported by the integrity and symmetry of the laws of physics, IMO, without further realizing the absolute eternal thermal condition of zero temperature assisting any possible self-affinity at this early period___I have doubts as to whether any self-affinity is needed to exist at the absolute fundamental level___IMO, it smells of an undefinable, and I would say science has no undefinables___it's too much like adding in a "mythos". I would admit it is a major element of later quantumized finite space. If you can explain it in any other manner than pure thermal pressure, I'm all ears.] Axiom 3: Fundamental matter adheres to itself – Self-Affinity.[I can't accept until explained more in depth.] BTW: My calculations for the volume of the substance prior to the universe event is approximately a 50,000 kilometer diameter sphere.[IMO, according to what we already know about collapsed stars and the huge numbers existing in the entire finite universe to later collapse, to say neutron stars, wouldn't that be a bit small?] We can discuss the math latter. Relative to the infinite void, I guess we could call it a zero point, but not as it is currently interpreted. Are we ready to go on, or does someone need to discuss this Pre-event state further or think it is just mythomania?[We're on the right track, we just need further clarrifications.] Lloyd: I would like to change the name of your thread to something more fitting to what we are doing. Maybe “Universal Evolution”. Let me know.[Fine]

David, here's a proposal for Axion 3: Absolute first state wave matter must have always had infinite motion.[or Axiom 4, if you like.]
And maybe Axiom 5: Fundamental matter must be eternal.
And maybe Axiom 6: Fundamental matter must be thermally motioned, or fundamental matter is thermodynamic, in and of itself, then it would be self-affinity, as you state, but iff... But this becomes impossible, as it would have no way of changing state, while maintaining initial thermal state, which we know still exists as low entropy cold space. So I think the thermodynamic must by scientific induction and deduction be a part of self-affinity.

David, IMO, there are only several fundamentals that exist at the absolute first state level, but they exist all at once, eternally. We must separate out the order/function of their fundamental motions, first, I believe, to proceed. Let me know what you think, or explain it further in your own manner.

Lloyd

p.s.
We need absolute definitions of self-affinity___universal thermodynamics.

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Hi David,

A correction to the above Axiom 3: Fundamental matter adheres to itself – Self-Affinity.

Since thinking it over, and referring to my notes, self-affinity works fine, if understood to be thermal self-affinity of fundamental matter adheres to itself. Thermal is the contractive attribute at absolute first state of the fundamental substance. The absolute fundamental substance being thermal seems completely obvious, as it has always been. This science is sound to the symmetry of all the laws of physics, and allows both our ideas to be the one substance. It is also how it would have to scientifically be, IMO. I can accept axion 3: with this clarrification. So, what say?

Sorry for the error,
Lloyd

[dleviwing]

Ok Lloyd, let’s say you set up your axioms for your concept and we can compare similarities and differences latter for discussion. Also before we get into the formalisms of thermodynamics, Relativity, and QED, let’s establish a functional paradigm to interpret the numbers produced by these theories.

In my concept, (actually called "Toronics") we have not as yet entered the wave phenomena phase of the evolving universe basically because it has not yet started evolving. We are only at the phase of defining the fundamental substance we’re going to use to make a universe as we know it today. To do this, we must assign or define the fundamental properties that this substance has or can produce. In your case, you are using terms like “force” which I find highly objectionable at this phase. Force is a term that infers physical behavior and motion; So in my concept, I simply state that this substance has a fundamental property of motion. This property must be absolute (fixed quantity in all systems).

Now we have the grounds for the 4th axiom and second property of fundamental matter.
Axiom 4: Matter has “Absolute Motion”. Any autonomous system formed by matter must have the equivalent of this quantity without exception.

The next step is to show how motion can be distributed within a system and what effect it has on the bonding property and interactions of the system.

Is there anything else we need to produce a universe?

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Hi David,

Let me just first post your axioms, as I agree to them, with slight variations, and then add my own.

"PRIOR TO THE UNIVERSE EVENT:"

Axiom 1.. An infinite void or place does exist. (Absolute void)
Axiom 2.. An entity that promotes physical phenomena exists. (Fundamental matter)
Axiom 3: Fundamental matter adheres to itself – Self-Affinity.
Axiom 4: Matter has “Absolute Motion”. Any autonomous system formed by matter must have the equivalent of this quantity without exception. [Please define quantity as used here. And please explain what "scientific" creates absolute motion.]
Axiom 5: Fundamental matter must be eternally existing. All later systems of, must exist as varying state changes of this fundamental matter.
Axiom 6: Fundamental matter must be thermally motioned, thus fundamental matter is thermodynamic, in and of itself, as it is one unified substance of matter motion. They can never exist separately.
Axiom 7. Fundamental knowledge of the absolute ground state can be acquired, through the decay model mechanics, of the present finite universe, in conjunction with the symmetric laws of physics.
Axiom 8. Every axiom must be accounted for by either correspondence to absolute finite/infinite reality, or the integrity and symmetry of the laws of physics, unless new scientific laws can prove supremacy over the existing laws.

These 8 fundamentals are all I {think I} need to build the entire universe of a later, much later finiteness. Our discussions will have to find this out.

Dave, IMO, thermo-dynamics means motion dynamics. It's the largest used cosmological system mechanics, to figure present finite universal motions. I see no reason for it not to apply to the absolute fundamental matter. As a matter of fact, I find no other "scientific" motion even possible, at this first state fundamental. In your original Wingit, you stated a state existing at zero Kelvin. I agree, or possibly 1mK above 0k, since low temperture physicists claim this to have been reached with 3^He. BTW, the quantum state changes at the low temperature end of the spectrum seem to be showing similar results as your accelerator high temperature observation. IMO David, the entire universe is hot and cold matter motion, and nothing but___anywhere/everywhere___always.

Now, to proceed from here I think we must clarify our differences, or if you have more fundamental axioms needed to build your universe, please state them. When we both agree to the numbers needed, and agreement of definitions and understandings, we can proceed to discuss the motions and mechanics needed. We are both realists, so we know the fundamental substance would be no more than the existing decayed finite universe___in state changed form. Can you agree? I don't want to get too elaborate, as we have some discussion to have our ideas meet, so that's about it for now.

Sincerely,
Lloyd

p.s.
David, I noticed the newest member, Dewd, is an absolutist-realist as we are. I think we should invite him into the thread. What say?

Also, here's a law I penned the other day, that pertains to our ground state fundamentals;
The Universal Law___The ground state of infinite zero Kelvin matter motion can never be destroyed___It can only change state of self-motions.

[dleviwing]

Axiomatic concepts:
Axiom 1.. An infinite void or place does exist – The Absolute void
Axiom 2.. An entity that promotes physical phenomena exists - Fundamental matter
Axiom 3: Fundamental matter adheres to itself – Self-Affinity bonding.
Axiom 4: Matter has “Absolute Motion” – A fixed quantitative value as a system constant.

Axiom 5: Fundamental matter must be eternally existing. All later systems of, must exist as varying state changes of this fundamental matter.
This is only an extension of Axiom 2 and only provides greater clarification.

Axiom 6: Fundamental matter must be thermally motioned, thus fundamental matter is thermodynamic, in and of itself, as it is one unified substance of matter motion. They can never exist separately.
This too is only an extension of Axiom 4 as clarification of the AM property.

Axiom 7. Fundamental knowledge of the absolute ground state can be acquired, through the decay model mechanics, of the present finite universe, in conjunction with the symmetric laws of physics.
I have no idea what you are referring to with this statement. I don’t believe it is needed and may only be confusing. “IMO”

Axiom 8. Every axiom must be accounted for by either correspondence to absolute finite/infinite reality, or the integrity and symmetry of the laws of physics, unless new scientific laws can prove supremacy over the existing laws.
I’m not sure what you are trying to define with this one and don’t believe it is needed either. “IMO”

Let’s just continue with greater detailed clarification of the properties of this fundamental matter – Axioms 3 and 4.

Axiom 3 – Self-affinity:
This property is the essential property of matter that allows all particles and structures to form. All the bonding terms currently defined in chemistry and physics rely on this property to function. This also includes electrical and magnetic bonding. This is only the fundamental nature of the property; the behavior of self-affinity is influenced by the states of matter and its motion distribution of which the wave nature is a significant part of its function.


Axiom 4 - Absolute Motion:
Other than volume and self-affinity, Absolute Motion(Va) is the only other property of matter. It is a fixed quantity that defines the sum quantity of all motion types of a physical system or structure of matter. This motion consists of "Random Motion (Vr) " and " Uniform Motion (Vu)". Linear velocity and spin velocity are types of uniform motion whereas chaotic wave vibration interference is the random motion component and the nature of matter that is illusive to our senses and to our instrumentation. We have come to know this state of matter as a vacuum, space, or spacetime.

Any value of 2c or greater will function in today's current equations but the value for expansion used by QM is more likely to be the most accurate.

[Lloyd Gillespie]

David, IMO, you can not define the linear ground state with anything from finite state quantum mechanics, other than linear motion, which is actually classical motion, as is thermal motion. In the linear ground state of absolute matter motion, all motion must be described by the existing matter motion of a void. Remember, "All is matter in a void." The low entropy thermal motion exists in this void, just as your Wingit Toronic Model stated___you can not avoid it___it must be considered as part of "All is matter in a void." Otherwise, your model has no motioner, except, "Let there be motion." We both know this is impossible. So, let's define Axioms 3 and 4, from what we absolutely know existed at the first infinite void's ground state, and not use quantum mechanics or any GRT motions to describe this state, as they are much later existing states of universal matter motions. Low entropy thermal motion is, and has to be, linear motion___thus of the existing ground state. You can't just skip trillions of years of universal evolution, and go directly to go... We must fill in the blanks between your absolute motion toronic model, and my low entropy tornadic motion model___I assure you they are compatible, even to the velocities, or at least close. The low entropy motion model is the completed foundation of your high entropy motion model. They are of the same infinite void's thermal eternally existing linear motion. If you try to skip this fact, you may be making the same mistake Feyneman made by throwing out mathematical infinities for re-normalizations___short cuts don't work___as history has clearly shown us.

Originally Posted by dleviwing Axiomatic concepts: Axiom 1.. An infinite void or place does exist – The Absolute void Axiom 2.. An entity that promotes physical phenomena exists - Fundamental matter Axiom 3: Fundamental matter adheres to itself – Self-Affinity bonding.[IMO, this still needs much more linear motion definition___not quantum definition___as it doesn't yet exist. Self-affinity must be linearly defined, robustly.] Axiom 4: Matter has “Absolute Motion” – A fixed quantitative value as a system constant.[IMO, the only fixed quantitative value as a system constant, in universal evolution is change, other than change is absolute, as is matter, attraction, place and motion. This doesn't mean we can't have sound mathematical definitions, based on absolute matter. I guess you'd have to further define this fixed constant as a sub-axiom. The scientific foundation of absolute motion needs to be stated___robustly.] Axiom 5: Fundamental matter must be eternally existing. All later systems of, must exist as varying state changes of this fundamental matter. This is only an extension of Axiom 2 and only provides greater clarification.[We should also list the extensions of all the axioms in a., b., c., d., e., f., formats.] Axiom 6: Fundamental matter must be thermally motioned, thus fundamental matter is thermodynamic, in and of itself, as it is one unified substance of matter motion. They can never exist separately. This too is only an extension of Axiom 4 as clarification of the AM property.[Again, IMO, it must be listed, as should many other sub-axioms of all the axioms. Otherwise, we just jump too quick to unfounded finite conclusions of our infinite imaginations.] Axiom 7. Fundamental knowledge of the absolute ground state can be acquired, through the decay model mechanics, of the present finite universe, in conjunction with the symmetric laws of physics. I have no idea what you are referring to with this statement. I don’t believe it is needed and may only be confusing. “IMO” [IMO, David, I see no other way to explain all the complexities of universal motions, which need to be discussed and explained, for your absolute high entropy absolute motion to form and exist___in the linear ground state___which both models agree exists___if you agree with what you wrote in the Wingit Model___and "All is matter in a void".] Axiom 8. Every axiom must be accounted for by either correspondence to absolute finite/infinite reality, or the integrity and symmetry of the laws of physics, unless new scientific laws can prove supremacy over the existing laws. I’m not sure what you are trying to define with this one and don’t believe it is needed either. “IMO” [In this one David, I am just trying to assure that our interpretations of the axioms conforms to finite reality, where it does apply to the infinite ground state reality. Of course most of the finite realities of quantum and relative mechanics does not apply to the ground state of classical linear, only, motion___as classical motion only applies at this evolutionary stage___quantum and relative only appear on the scene at your toronic model's final stages, out of my tornadic model's first stages. As you probably remember, I stated month's ago about the initial ground state being no more than one infinite weather system of matter motions___and now say for trillions of trillions of years, before first singularity___or your toronic model's high entropy motion stage ___2*10^20m/s. I believe you meant miles per second___correct me if I'm wrong. These two system models are entirely complementary.] Let’s just continue with greater detailed clarification of the properties of this fundamental matter – Axioms 3 and 4. Axiom 3 – Self-affinity: This property is the essential property of matter that allows all particles and structures to form. All the bonding terms currently defined in chemistry and physics rely on this property to function. This also includes electrical and magnetic bonding. This is only the fundamental nature of the property; the behavior of self-affinity is influenced by the states of matter and its motion distribution of which the wave nature is a significant part of its function.[This is what I mean by jumping too fast to the finite state of matter motion, in trying to define linear motion___it does not yet apply. Start at what we have to work with in the ground state of linear motion___only. We can later add the quantum and relative, but, the thermal low entropy motion state is linear, and always has been. It has no other way to exist. This will take a fully understood model of fundamental thermodynamics of the ground state to know why this functioning knowledge is first absolutely required. As far as I know, this ground state of required thermodynamics has never in history been discussed___as it relates to why low entropy must exist out side of high entropy, and why it cannot be reversed, theoretically or for real, i.e., the arrow of time. There can be no other high entropy outside of absolute ground state low entropy. All finiteness must exist inside absolute ground state low entropy motion, and with low entropy motion also existing within all high and low entropy finiteness, for cold to work against heat, or heat against cold.] Axiom 4 - Absolute Motion: Other than volume and self-affinity, Absolute Motion(Va) is the only other property of matter. It is a fixed quantity that defines the sum quantity of all motion types of a physical system or structure of matter. This motion consists of "Random Motion (Vr) " and " Uniform Motion (Vu)". Linear velocity and spin velocity are types of uniform motion whereas chaotic wave vibration interference is the random motion component and the nature of matter that is illusive to our senses and to our instrumentation. We have come to know this state of matter as a vacuum, space, or spacetime.[Here again, David, after you earlier stated to not deal with QED or GRT, you enter them. I can understand why you do, as I also insert the thermals, but thermal is of linear ground state matter motion, whereas QED and GRT are not___They are clearly much later quantumized states. So, is there any way we can come to agreement on what actually comes first, or was first state, especially when your Wingit post states absolute zero existing as a linear component of toronic motion? Can we stick with the basics of ground state matter motion, or motions of.] Any value of 2c or greater will function in today's current equations but the value for expansion used by QM is more likely to be the most accurate.[David, IMO, if you would continue with the early definitions of the ground state linear dynamics of absolute matter motion, I think we will both expose the inadequacies of present formal mathematics of most mechanics. By doing this I can show you where your model's soundness, can be made much more sound, by fitting it to the true time of universal evolution___most likely 10^137 years, as that is the figure Hawking gives for a complete static model universal decay. With radiation spread that many years distance___almost a semi-infinity___It would have taken most the same number of years to evolve to this quantum finite state. This in no way eliminates your toronic model___it reinforces it___as the opposite of all universal decay back to singularity most likely produces motion velocities approaching 2*10^20m/s, if that's a figure you are comfortable with.]

So, can we discuss the straight linear absolute motion dynamics of absolute fundamental matter, with all the infinite void's true pieces of ground state in place?

I see a three phase state of fundamental matter___substance state___motion state___thermal state___of one unified linear state of thermal matter motion. I would call this the unified three phase state of fundamental matter. IMO, there is no motion possible without thermal scientific motion. Thermal does not stop your toronic model from working___it completes its scientific motion's workings. Thermal motion gives toronics a scientific absolute linear foundation of autonomous self-motion. Low entropy linear thermal motion is the impetus for your high entropy toronic absolute motion___ya gotta start at ground state___low e-motion. {e-motion=entropy motion} IMO, the universal principle of evolution is slow thermal linear, to fast thermal linear, to fast and slow angular/linear matter motions.

IMO, David, we are working toward the absolute tornadic/toronic center of the first state thermal matter motion universe's singularity. I see the ground state universe as absolutely linear infinite thermal matter motion___one absolute of. IMO, all matter motion is absolutely thermal, as an infinite state changing potential. I see absolute self-affinity as thermal___always. Finally, IMO, thermodynamics gives a true universal time scale to, scientifically, soundly build a real evolutionary universe.

David, I hope we can work this out, as I know it's the possibility of an entirely new model for physics, and possibly will lead to the understanding of a new philosophical TOE.

Sincerely,
Lloyd

p.s.
David, IMO, we are talking about a low entropy infinite linear model, that creates a high entropy angular/linear finite model, from say, an absolute non-viscous fluidic matter thermal motion. If this helps...

[Lloyd Gillespie]

The way I see it we are trying to define two entirely different absolutes. I only accept one absolute___The absolute one law of the universe is___The infinite thermal space matter motion is one single ground state entity. This is, imo, the universal ground state mechanics explanation, in and of itself___This law of one law is the law of all law. This represents just a simple common sense mechanics of the ground state of the infinite universe. The absolute model I'm representing is just this one law state of___"The Absolute" is infinite thermal space matter motion, further interpreted all the way to the finite singularity___the rest is quantum and relative history. It never stops changing state___motion...

If you would ever take the time to just think through the simple mechanics above, you'd easily see the truth of all worlds. I think it's just too simple to understand. It's always been here, right in front of our eyes___nothing but cold and hot, slow and fast matter motions... It's classically simple___no complexity what-so-ever. The only absolute is this always and forever changing ground state. The science and physics is absolute state changes___there is no other science and physics___except possibly the unchanging infinite space/void___then, I don't know about that...

Infinity, the infinite space void is the thinnest mass density possible to exist___It's obvious___it's cold___it's thermal___it's matter___it's motion___it's linear___it's "The Absolute"___it's absolute state change in all its dynamics. Now, do you want to make it into a classical model, all the way to the first singularity___or not? I do. I'd like your help, as it will answer all questions, and fill in science's and physics' weakest link___the fact of no logical or mathematical link between the ground state of infinity, and the finite singularity___it had to produce...

[dleviwing]

Lloyd;
The problem I see with this oneness approach is the same that I see with “WSM” forum approach, no functional mechanism for what constitutes a particle structure. Also this does not provide satisfactory explanations for the conservation laws and especially the concept of inertial mass. This approach is one I tried over 30 years ago and it did not pan out then so I evolved my concept to the current 4 axioms. Though motion can vary within a system, the total will always be an absolute and thus the conservation of mass and energy are preserved even though they should be called conservation of matter and motion. There is no doubt that the thermodynamic interpretations of thermal behavior is a must in any real concept.

I don’t think you realize that I have thought these scenarios out over the past 40 years or so. I have not seen any new concepts that I have not tried in the past. If you apply these ideas to all the known facts of science and compare them to the functional mathematics, you will find that the oneness concept will indeed fail.

If you like, we can go into detail discussion of your concept and save mine for latter, or we can present both concepts side by side for comparison. What path would you like to take?

Robert is initiating a user group forum format that the creator of the group can make his thread “invitation only”. That way we can keep the riffraff creationism out of the pure science discussion. When this occurs, I can move this thread to that format.

[theunify]

Lloyd I believe you asked for some Units of Absolute Motion Axiom 4 I believe.
Distance/Time=Speed. Since Einstein proved Space is equal to time, this allows us Va. Absolute motion, since if=D is equal to T, then Speed always remains constant. This may be as far as Einstein got; and he might have never considered ground state and the energy required to make Va a reality.

If
D=T, where D represents space, and T represents time, then D/T is always constant, then speed is a quantity of absolute physical existance.

Hope this was of assistance.