[MJA]

Originally Posted by Tina So if "interconnectedness" is Truth then what is the root cause of the falsehood underlying "dis-connectedness" ?

I think the answer to your question is obviously the flaw of measured difference.
Life without measure is simply, truly, naturally, equal, united, one, or the same.

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MJA

[MJA]

Originally Posted by leskey The more I read the more I believe in the interconnectedness of everything. I have come to see this interconnectedness as The Truth. The Truth is Utopia.

Nice Leskey,

The Truth is Everything, and is all you need to know.

Practicing Truth is all you need to do.

Truth is easier said than done.

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MJA

[Darwyn43]

Originally Posted by futrethink Darwin43. ---It all depends on what nature believes should happen in the future. ---I wasn’t asking what the entirety of nature thought; I was asking what you thought. ---Everything deserves to lives, nothing deserves to lives, it is both at the same time, it is neither of them and it is all of the previous at the same time. It depends on both of the context/objectivity and the perception/subjectivity. Look at someone you love or the home (that you live in and have worked hard to create) and tell me if they or it deserves to have their lives or its existence ended by a drunk driver? ---You do know and remember that; you are a part of nature and, as such, an integral part of the cooperative decision making process that will create what will happen in the future. Since you have stated as such. ---Whether a person believes they will not cause change for the better or not; they do have a positive effect. It is just the perception of the context that you have to change to find it.

---I would agree with this, but by my TOE method, systematically removing the subjective is an integral part of the method to hope to attain any kind of feasability and agreement, because subjectivity is the ultimate communication barrier. As long as we are defining things by what they mean to us, our self-interest will always blind us to the natural laws of the universe. However, to use some deductive logic, it is the ultimate self-interest to align our understanding of the world as close as possible to the natural organization of the universe in order to harness that power and truth. Besides, actual rewards and punishments will be paid out based on the realities of the universe, not what we think we want subjectively. Thus, yeah, I hear what you are saying about drunk drivers - I want those I care about to live and thrive, I want to succeed, and so forth, but at the same time, I don't confuse that with my picture of myself in the universe. I think this creates some cognitive dissonance, but ultimately that is pretty unavoidable and worth it.

---Which part is causing the confusion?

I think I've got this now, and we've moved past it.

---Actually, on the scale of argument that you continue to go on about, it already has happened in the past and is happening even now. ---Another couple of ways of looking at/defining those two concepts is as: conformity=order=predictability=fate and individual thinking=free will=unpredictability=chance.

I completely agree that it has happened and is happening, otherwise I couldn't boast of the frustration I spoke of of living in a society in blinders. Probably a better way I could have said that is that the compromise used to be absolute, it's progressed to be probably far better than it was even a hundred years ago, and in the relatively near future, it will be much better to the eventual point of intellectual freedom co-existing with intellectual cooperation.

---As I stated, the Borg are an extreme version. They might actually be a part of our objective future in this intersubjective reality. It all depends on if the predictable happens or not.

I believe the subjective has come to define our vision of the future in relation to our ideals for the present, and as such, the Borg is a dichotomous fear that arises when use that subjective vision as the starting point in considering how it could go wrong. But I've abandoned traditional cultural views of what things should look like, so in my mind at least, the Borg are not one of the paths I'm worried about.

---Balance is already what existence is. Nature does not always have balance due to human beings (being a part of nature) not exactly living their lives by balance. For an exact balance to happen for an individual’s life, they would have to exist in a point of stasis that has no connection to outside time or space.

Well, there you have it - nature is not perfectly balanced. Nature is more or less balanced, but as it feels forward and experiments with new forms that can take it upward and onward by experimenting with ideas in a trial-and-error fashion where some of them will lead to larger balanced structures and others will become imbalanced and become eclipsed. Even social systems are experiments which, when they don't work, affect everything within them down to the imbalance of the people within them and their respective cellular metabolisms. But then that system is brought down in competition by a more stable system. Either way, in the process, imbalance can exist on the planet for short periods.

---The thing is; what is considered to be conforming is left up to the majority of that society. What makes you so sure that you can get a complete group of people to agree, when there are times you can’t even get intelligent people to agree on what to put on a pizza. Sometimes you can, but there are often arising circumstances of reality that don’t allow for such.

---To me it is a self-interest equation. Ultimately, as I said above, the most self-interested thing we can do is to understand the objective context of experience so that we can see how it creates each of our subjectively-perceived experiences. Then we can see where our subjectively-organized knowledge structures are failing to align. By agreeing, though, that your experience and my experience both could have been shaped by a particular set of interconnected forces, we can see where my knowledge might be organized differently than yours and still agree on a superseeding set of facts that dictated both of our understandings. That superseeding set of facts, laws, rules, etc., will be the thing we can absolutely agree on, and use to forecast some future goal based on it's extrapolations. That goal, in turn, can be the endpoint we use to organize all future knowledge in order to facilitate cooperation even among initially differing perspectives.
---In my mind, we find that experience context only by connecting knowledge and information into a tapestry of the real world through synthesizing all of the sciences (which for my money is best organized by cybernetics, global brain theory, superorganism theory, multi-level selection theory, metasystem transition theory, or whatever you want to call it - they all more or less agree).

---I don’t know of Bloom and I didn’t bother doing a Google (for my limited, library computer time’s sake).

You should - he is one of the best, if not the best, TOE author's I've ever read. I'm hoping to work with him in the near future. (Also great is Francis Heylighen and Robert Wright, among others)

[Tina]

Originally Posted by MJA I think the answer to your question is obviously the flaw of measured difference. Life without measure is simply, truly, naturally, equal, united, one, or the same. = MJA

Michael - what is the CAUSE of this human flaw of measuring differance. I agree we do this but why do we do this - why to we perceive and interpret the world in this way?

[leskey]

Hi, Tina.

It's not so hard to understand that in order for Life to exist it had to come into existence spontaneously, with all of it's life support systems (Nature) already in place. Yes, everything we need is/was here ready and waiting.

Earth is one incredible recycling unit. Life exists here and is recylced into... more Life that exists here. No big surprises in the fact that Nature holds all the answers for...Life! Some ancient cultures still hold a thread to The Truth, but in the main it has been lost. Life (the Human kind) continues to move further away from Nature...

We can put people into space, we can land them on another planet, but until we can adequately provide (transport/manufacture) the necessities of Life (breatheable air, food with all the correct nutrients, water, water, WATER!), we're not going anywhere - at least, not for very long!

OK, so, taking it another step closer, I will attemp to explain:

The Truth just "IS" and any departure/disconnection from it, is the origin of Dysfunction/Malfunction/The Lie, that is Evil.

So, what we have, are ever-increasing millions of INDIVIDUAL human consciousnesses or individulal Selves who are each and all living their own, very personal Lie. What IS unique in Nature, however, is not just consciousness, but the capacity for a COLLECTIVE human consciousness.

So, if to COLLECTIVELY accept or adhere to The Truth is to benefit All, and to deny The Truth is to allow Evil to exist, then the manifestation of SELF-awareness is the root of all Evil.

This can even be taken a step further:

If what benefits ALL (the Collective) is the manifestation of Love, then HYPER-awareness of the Self/the complete denial of Love, is the manifestation of consummate Evil incarnate.

[MJA]

Originally Posted by Tina Michael - what is the CAUSE of this human flaw of measuring differance. I agree we do this but why do we do this - why to we perceive and interpret the world in this way?

Hi Tina,

We are all taught to measure differences, whereas we should have been taught to measure our simularities. Had we done so, we would have found the unity we all seek. Man simply went the wrong way, but even the wrong way will lead us all to what is right, to what is simply the truth. Truth will not be denied no matter our errant ways.

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MJA

[leskey]

Originally Posted by MJA Nice Leskey, The Truth is Everything, and is all you need to know. Practicing Truth is all you need to do. Truth is easier said than done. = MJA

Hi, MJA.

The sub-text relating to freedom and education caught my attention.

No doubt, in the world as we find it, education is essential. However, it is a fundamentally flawed system (like all man-made systems).

Education is the dissection of knowledge (specialization). It encourages selfishness/self-interest, is stifling and stereotyping, a source of conformity and complacency.

So many Lecturers are ernormously egotistical creatures who seldom applaud orginal thinking: their method is to have you think what they want you to think, but to have you think you came up with it: "jumping through hoops." In order the receive The Reward, we comply rather than question. If we, unfettered by the burden of life, are at our MOST creative before the age of 25, then how much orginal thought is killed off, never to be fully formed?

It is necessary to go BEYOND education. Education is liberating only in the extent to which it kindles the spark to CONTINUE learning.

"The true value of a human being is determined primarily by the measure and the sense in which they have obtained liberation from the self..." Einstein

[leskey]

Hi, MJA.

The Truth is The Truth. It is immutable.

In the world as we find it, it is not The Truth that is easier said than done; it is the "practicing" or adherence to The Truth...

[MJA]

We are what we are taught.

We have been taught Yahoo, and Jonathan Swift's Yahoos we have become.

I wrote this some time ago and thought it appropriate to post it here.

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MJA

YAHOO

Whilst searching for the truth of everything, I found something to share. I came across two references to Jonathan Swift’s story “Gulliver’s Travels.” Like any good true searcher, I found, rented, and watched the movie. I also gave it a critic rating of “G,” great. The story is a satire, meaning that it negatively abuses the fundamental institutions of humanity. The story is about a person named Gulliver, who goes on a trip, finds unbelievable truth, and comes back to share his discovery. Unfortunately for him, he was measured to be crazy, and locked up. The history of other great discoverers have met with similar discomforts, such as burning them on stakes, something only humans could invent. Gulliver tells a story of the irony of man, the flaws of who we are, even though we think ourselves better. There is one place Gulliver stops on his journey that had particular interest to me. He becomes one with wild horses, and sees freedom for the first time. The horses have given human beings the name “Yahoo,” and see us as the savages that we truly are.

Several months before seeing this movie, I thought it a good idea to check out a new elementary school, just to see modern education at work, it also being a part of my current study of everything. I was told due to security reasons, I was not allowed to look, so on my way out I did anyway. I looked into a classroom and saw young children standing neatly at attention, next to computers with thin screen monitors. At the blackboard a teacher wrote “Y A H O O” in large letters for everyone to see. I then questioned the importance of “yahoo,” over the teaching of the basics of life, at the elementary level or any other. Mr. Swift saw us as savage ignorant “yahoos,” over three hundred years ago. I still cannot believe his insight.

None of us are born “yahoos,” we are what we are taught. Do students of any age bring homework home such as “happiness,” or is it “yahoo”? Is computer science more important than ourselves? Perhaps geometry, algebra, calculus, computers, biology, science, astronanophysics, materialism, and “yahoo” have taken the valuable space of what is important. Are we being taught the importance of helping others, or the importance of money, and helping ourselves? Can you imagine a school called The Institute of How To Live instead of Technology? The School of Law could be the School of Morality. The department of physics, or in other words the department of measuring the differences in nature, could be the department of the nature of equality. Would the universe be a better place if we studied what we can see, instead of what we can not? I think Mr. Swift knew the foundation of ignorance is education, what about you? The question has often been asked: “Why do we have to study something we will never use?” Would a class on the proper use of a public garbage can be more beneficial than Euclid’s geometry on this trashed planet of ours?

Many people over our human history have pointed us to where wisdom is to be found, right in front of us, not further away. We have been micro and macro measuring everything, only to take us further from the truth, something we were unfortunately taught to do. We have a choice to make with the direction of education for our future, which should it be, “yahoo,” or the truth. If man has become ignorant and cruel, then perhaps a change in curriculum to what is most important and true, will enlighten, make us wise, and ultimately set us free.

MJA

[Tina]

Originally Posted by MJA Hi Tina, We are all taught to measure differences, whereas we should have been taught to measure our simularities..... Truth will not be denied no matter our errant ways. = MJA

Measurement of differance also implies value judgements regarding differances - why are we 'judges'?


PS I have read Gulliver's Travels and it does show up a multitude of human foibles anf frailities.