Should a TOE affect Religions???

[Fredrick]

I guess I have to give in to you. Language is ultimately a tool that is arbitrary, ambiguous and abstract. As such, there is a lot of freedom to declare a word a word, and we can therefore discuss for what it stands. So if you use the word proof (whether delivered by you or someone else) and then discuss the correct meaning of that word, the more power to you.

But allow me to be disappointed that someone who started up communication about a word I used (believer) is now hiding behind a word.

Allow me to tell you that I have discovered one further piece of progress for me in understanding you: I was able to read in your information that you are indeed an atheist. If I read it correctly then you claim that god does not exist all the way upto the level that it can be proven. It therefore establishes a confirmation for me and for my word believer, because believers consider their ideas to be true. According to me, your further diminishing of the word proof only contributes to what I understand to be the correct meaning of the word believer.

[Guille]

All our knowledge is gained by our inteligence which devides in memory, imagination, spacial, logical.....And all of these we rely on intuition. Everything is from our intuition. So if I say I proof it is a believe-hope-intuition of me proving and a believe-hope-intuition for no-god. But we are limited to and by our intuition.

[Fredrick]

Thank you for your words. Let's try to get back to our thread. What do you think would happen to religions if a TOE was delivered - or for those who like me think it was delivered already - what would happen to religions the moment the TOE is generally accepted?

[Guille]

Thank you for your words. Let's try to get back to our thread. What do you think would happen to religions if a TOE was delivered - or for those who like me think it was delivered already - what would happen to religions the moment the TOE is generally accepted?

well, big organised world wide religions, like christianity, judaism and islamism would first be introduced to the complete of the theory. The pope, for example, would call scientists to a conference in which to instruct him, depending on what it is, what it states, but most specially: what the theory of everything says about religions (which should be noting), about god (which should be nothing), about the begining of the universe (which should be everything: always scientifically) and about the creation of matter/mass/energy. If the creation of the universe requirs no god, then, not necesarily they would be against. It would have to depend on detail. If, for example, the TOE states that the universe become with a huge amount of energy that came from.... and started the universe, then probably the pope wouldn't be against, because it would requier a massive energy=which could be viewed as god. Things like this ar eon which religions would depend. Also in the philosophy of the TOE. If the TOE says things about morals, ethics and other things, then yes. It would also have to do with the math used in the TOE. String theory has very strange and complicated math, and this would be too diferent to the simple math used in other universe explanation. I guess we will know when it comes.

[davidgow77]

Thank you for your words. Let's try to get back to our thread. What do you think would happen to religions if a TOE was delivered - or for those who like me think it was delivered already - what would happen to religions the moment the TOE is generally accepted?

I think Frederick has highlighted possibly THE most profound question. In my view a TOE would serve to give gravitas to the basic principle of each religion separartely, whilst simultaneously knitting together the concpets of all religions. For example Judaic principles should be illustrated within the framework of both Christianity and Islam (and vice-verse), but also within the framework of atheistic (philosohpical) belief structures, polytheism, atheistic religions (such as Buddhism) and even in political ideologies. I think the main issue that each religion would have to grasp is that if as long as the universe was created in one instant then their can only be one true creator. As far as polytheism goes, this principle is reconcilable as polytheistic cultures tend to have a supremeGod (a creator God), monothesim obviously has only one God (The Creator God) atheistic religions tend to explain God without referring to anthropomorphic aspects of God (so they would explain it as "life force" or something similar), agnostics are people who look for proof (without really realising that the proof of God, or more accurately the proof of a creator God is the existence of the universe), and where true-atheist (I.e those without any kind of religious following) would have everything explained to them through scientific miracles made possible by the completion of a TOE (for example.... if we found the key to what gravity is then maybe we could harness gravitational energy, or zero-point energy and provide free electricity to the world....think of how may people would have faith in science then!!!!

The final step for a TOE would be to show how religion has given rise to science, and how science is in essence a way of "proving religion to founded upon scientifically sound princples." I'll get thinking on some examples to see if I can explain further, but the bottom line is that a TOE must describe the process of human evolutionary thought processes and how we interpret the world/universe around us within in the contexts of each philosophical, religious and scientic discipline/doctrine and then show how they relate to eachother. In essence this means that the TOE will only truly be "solved" when everyone understands who that are and what the purpose of human life is, and can use whatever knowledge/understanding they have gleemed throughout their life (be it through religion, science or everyday experience) to back it up. The person who solves the TOE will probably be the person who finds a "key" to understanding Chaos Theory (chaos theory, it must be noted cannot be solved, otherwise it would be completely understood, and would cease to be a theory of "chaos"

I think the thing that religious organsiations would have to accept is that some followers of religion tend to stop worshipping God and start worshipping the actual religion itself. This is what leads to fundamentalism (the "we're right and you're wrong approach") and is what leads to the infliction of suffering upon others for religious reasons. The purpose of human life must be seen (and indeed can by backed up by every kind of religious scripture) as being the "abolition of suffering". Only when this concept is grasped by the majority of people with the true nature of religious belief shine, and will the true potential of the human race be realised. Imagine what would happen is the parties involved in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict just sat down wrote out a contract to abolish suffering? I guarantee the west would break its back providing aid to make it work and would facilitate negotiation at every level. Just an idea.... but that is essentially what Fredericks question is asking.... what in your wildest dreams would a TOE provide.

Even attempting to answer that question has tied my head in knots!!!!!
....and given me a couple of new ideas..... cheers Frederick, and Guille for the response.

Finally I am still unconvinced that Guille is only fourteen years old. Just quit high school man and get yourself to Oxford.


DG

[Guille]

I think the thing that religious organsiations would have to accept is that some followers of religion tend to stop worshipping God and start worshipping the actual religion itself.

This is a good answer. If TOE was come to be joined to religion or god, either if it's the auther's will or the reader's conclusions, the religions will have to accepted and in fact will support it. This is a point, even if the TOE doesn't require a god for the begining of the universe, then still, religions will do this.

Finally I am still unconvinced that Guille is only fourteen years old. Just quit high school man and get yourself to Oxford.

I start lol when I read these comments. Maybe I should do what you say....

[eyeboy]

No TOE will ever rule out God, because whatever you know or think you know about the universe, you will never know if it's the whole picture.

it seems to me that god shouldn't necessarily be concerned with any TOE. God is an invention of man to explain the unknown, to comfort fear of the unknown and to present man with a purpose in their short life. This I think is the reason why 300 years ago not beleiving in god was blasphemy punishable by death (Bruno 1600), now as we gain more knowledge and are able to prove theories about the universe god is a lifestyle choice and not a neccesity. On this basis TOE will prove our physicality and not our spirituality.

[Guille]

Eyeboy;
I agree much with you. Please I invite you te read and comment my posts on "God" thread. Thank you.

[davidgow77]

The thing is that every individual has a theory of everything, or a theory of their own life and how it relates to the universe. The true nature of a TOE is that it would allow you to solve unresolved problems (anything from quantum gravity to Israel and Palestine), and may therefore be based upon a modular format for the dissemmination of chaos theory. There will never actual be a complete solution to this (becasue Chaos is perpetual) but a modular theorum could be used as a template. A TOE would therefore have to fundamentally explain how concepts (such as religions, ideas), science (the measurement of physical specifics) and the human (or anthropic) thought process all interact. In other words, you need to understand the intrinsic working patterns of the human brain and how it interprets the world around us..... in this respect the answer is only ever going to be found in Neuro-linguistics and topology (see Prof Sir Roger Penrose's work for this).

DG

[Craigo]

Any TOE must explain to the various religions around the world (enough to satisfy their own favorite "Big Beard In The Sky" theory) how the universe works in their terms without actually damaging their belief systems. If we are lucky ( very lucky ) the accepted theory will be the correct one. (Never forget the phlogiston lesson.) Any theory of everything must be popular with every one around the world and correct without any actual numbers being involved. I think that we will end up with an explanation in general terms as to how things work and began, that can be forced into the observed universe easily enough to convince even the most sceptical. And in my humble opinion you don't get any more sceptical than a religious leader. Religion is so important because it represents a huge amount of people operating under a very clearly stated belief system. Thats a lot of power, and the systems themselves were thought to be at the time of their many authors, a complete theory of everything in themselves and explained to the people of the day in their terms, how things worked. Essentially they brought us to where we are today without getting us all killed.So there must be elements of truth in each religion. Don't confuse the work of fanatics and zealots as any particular religions written dogma, just a certain interpretation of it. All religions vindicate prayer, belief and faith to help matters along in your life. This is pretty good advice for any one since it keeps focus on your purpose in life (assist in finding a TOE) helps if you repeat it out loud to tune your thoughts (praying) often enough to keep it nice and fresh at least twice a day (sound familiar) give thanks for what you have accomplished so far and build the expectation of ultimate success (faith). These principles are used over and over by many people in many walks of life and absolutely work. Some of you Toeseekers might well use self talk to bash out a new idea, even you staunch atheists. This is prayer pure and simple, it is tuning your mind to begin influencing the universe around you and bending it into a shape of your devising. If you do not accept that think about this, if you had never been born it is extremely unlikely that there woud be a you shaped hole walking around and big spaces in the world where you should have been to invent stuff. The fact that you have been born has changed the shape of the universe. The fact that you have a purpose in life will further influence the shape of things to come. It definately has in the past. Otherwise we would still be catching grubs with sticks! These are the basic teachings of all religious dogmas and as I have said, here we are at.If they are wrong then they're not far out.

You cannot ignore religion because it attempts to explain in terms people can understand how it works. God, Allah, Jehovah, the Is, the aether, spacetime and good old Bob are all names attached to a very real observable and on the whole accepted fact of the universe and to ignore Gods and religion in any TOE is to turn your back on a working theory of everything that needs to be tweaked and worked into the world of science. Conversly any TOE is by definition going to be a new operating religion for those who need stuff explained in that particular manner. After all it doesn't matter if you think a car is powered by gerbils on a treadmill as long as you push the buttons and levers and twist the wheel in the correct sequence you can operate it. It does mean you won't be invited to repair my car anytime soon. Think of religions as the drivers of this universe and us as the mechanics trying to figure out how it works. The religions have already figured out how to work it.