Vegetarianism is a Higher level View

[MJA]

There's also the fact that we too play a role in many ecosystems, whereby the effects of all humans becoming herbivores would probably be devastating to many other aspects which we know little about.

Our carnivorous tendencies have also taken the lead as top predator in many rural areas, whereby the recreational hunting and fishing done by many keeps local wildlife numbers in balance. Some of these creatures have few natural predators and their efficient breeding habits could easily overpopulate them to the point of effecting other aspects of our lives in negative ways; such as areas where strict hunting laws and regulations hinder the hunting of deer and such to the point that their numbers rapidly increase unchecked, and they become the number one killer of people's families on the highway due to their nature of grazing in ditches and stepping out in front of oncoming cars. If this aspect wasn't addressed we may find ourselves killing just to be killing for such reasons as safety concerns, property damage and to keep them out of our gardens due to their insufficient food sources relative to their numbers; rather than the more humane idea of killing for food, because we simply can't introduce keystone predators in our backyards without soon finding ourselves on the menu.

An Omnivorous Quote

"Nature, at all scales and resolutions, is a fragile balance of many things, some of which we still don't fully understand or realize sometimes. Everything is intertwined to the point that certain changes resonate throughout the whole in often drastic ways. Some can't deal with the seemingly 'ugly' side of existence, but I think it only makes things that much more beautiful."
analog, no one special

Deer Analog,

Are you saying there are killer deer out there and that if we don't kill them first they'll kill us and our families? Is that right? So should we kill all of the terrorist deer, so that its safe again to drive the gas burnin, air polutin, monster truck down the oil soaked tar highway for my over fat cheeseburger eatin underexercised family can get out and enjoy nature again? Or just half of em? How many deer should we kill?
Do you think mankind can manage nature better than itself, cause we sure gotta ways to go, don't ya think?
Maybe we should leave the managin of deer to nature and try simply to get out of her and the deers way, thats what I think.

Deerest me,

=
MJA

[MJA]

But a major part of the worlds GDP is involved in primary production. Especially those countries who are not so technologically advanced as the US.

As Tim tried to point out .... what practical methods do you propose so that everyone could become a vegan .... otherwise your just proposing an ideal

cool bananas ... greg

Its not an idea Greg, it is.
I am a vegetarian, an humanitarian, an equalitarian, I don't think it, I live it. I started right, let me say that again, RIGHT here with me. That's about all I can do is live it and sometimes tell it like it is. Like I am.
Truth is more than an idea Greg, its the only Way to go.
Try a vegie diet, you and the planet will be healthier that Way.

=
MJA

[Graybeard]

Deer Analog,
Are you saying there are killer deer out there and that if we don't kill them first they'll kill us and our families?
Deerest me

Mikey ... Your thread title is 'Vegetarianism is a Higher level View'. Your reply post to Analog doesn't support your title.

Its not an idea Greg.
Truth is more than an idea Greg

I know that its difficult to read an entire post before replying and try to comprehend it at the same time, I suffer from it too. However my spelling of 'idea' may have confused you, a natural mistake many make from lack of protein.

I spell it with an 'ell' ... and I pronounce it that way too. Otherwise you tend to mistake 'idea' for 'ideal', probably not such a big difference where you are. But a subtle difference none the less..

Perhaps now that we have cleared it up you would care to to reply to my post with that different spelling at the forefront of your thoughts..

I am very sorry to hear that your family spends your hard-earned whooping it up on cheeseburgers, double fries and under-exercising while your relegated to eating grass and producing the money to pay Big Macs. But even tho each individual member may not be eating a balanced diet, your family as a unit appears to be doing so. So thats one consolation.

cool bananas ... greg

[MJA]

Mikey ... Your thread title is 'Vegetarianism is a Higher level View'. Your reply post to Analog doesn't support your title.



I know that its difficult to read an entire post before replying and try to comprehend it at the same time, I suffer from it too. However my spelling of 'idea' may have confused you, a natural mistake many make from lack of protein.

I spell it with an 'ell' ... and I pronounce it that way too. Otherwise you tend to mistake 'idea' for 'ideal', probably not such a big difference where you are. But a subtle difference none the less..

Perhaps now that we have cleared it up you would care to to reply to my post with that different spelling at the forefront of your thoughts..

I am very sorry to hear that your family spends your hard-earned whooping it up on cheeseburgers, double fries and under-exercising while your relegated to eating grass and producing the money to pay Big Macs. But even tho each individual member may not be eating a balanced diet, your family as a unit appears to be doing so. So thats one consolation.

cool bananas ... greg

Dear greg,

Sorry I found your ideas so confusing to me. See if this helps.

My idea of an ideally humane diet, along with so many other of my friends is to not kill and eat meat, but rather live on fruits, vegetables and whole grains. But that I go well beyond the thought of that idea, and have found the practice of my own vegetarian diet ideal not only for the health of myself, but all things.
I suggest only that you and others who have not gone this Way of diet or nurishment to try, for the ideal good of you as well. Equality is more than an idea too, its the ideal Way.

=
MJA

[labelwench]

The pet food industry in North America is huge. If we were to all give up our pets, we could likely alleviate much of the hunger on ths planet.

O.K. - Let's not go there. We love our animals and want them to have equal rights to humans.

O.K. - Let's not go there either.

Cats and dogs are largely meat eaters. If you eliminate meat from the food you feed them, you will impact their health adversely, IMHO. Their digestive tracts will not evolve that quickly, based on historical studies.

As we, the human plague, overwhelm all suitable habitats on this planet, there will be no place left for cows, pigs, sheep, chickens, fowl and other domestic species in this paradigm.

This food chain arrangement we presently share with many species may be their best coping strategy to avoid extinction.

No disrespect intended.

Labelwench

[melanie]

I think killing animals is a selfish gross inhumane thing to do.
But we are no different to the animals, we are nothing more than stupid monkeys.

We don't need to kill animals but we do it because we can, ..free will.

Animals don't have free will ..they kill out of pure instinctive desire to survive.
That was the design.

Remember the garden? ... we got thrown out because we fell from grace ..down to base level,
Now we are no different to animal.

The garden was a metaphor for the higher spiritual nature unique to man...Higher CONSCIENCE
Animals don't have that ability to experience their spiritual nature not like we do, it's a privilege we abuse.

We are fallen and now we are reaping what we sow.
We still hold memory of the garden days, but we choose to forget.
We are selfish to the core.
So Now.....
We can either eat ourselves ALIVE
Or we can eat ourselves to DEATH

WAKE UP and smell the coffee.. hello!

Deja vu ....woodstock

Get those poor animals out of the god forsaken cages in the zoo.
Would you like to be caged ...nope!

We've got to get ourself back to the Garden...before it's too late.

And ACCEPT that Apple ...IT is very practical.

The tree of knowledge of right/wrong has failed us big time.

Science and religion rejects THAT so it seems.

[melanie]

When you live in your higher self ..You can live on bread water and sunlight alone.
The natural state.





SUNGAZING: Open The Pineal Gland, Improve Your Eyesight, Eat Less Food
Staring at the Sun:
My journey with the ancient practice of sun gazing, began in Arizona, a little over three years ago. I had discovered an incredible diet that was to save my life, by the same man who recommended sun gazing. His name was Vinny Pinto, and he ran a Yahoo group that focused on a man named Hira Ratan Manek. He was originally from India, and is commonly referred to as HRM.
HRM has literally subsisted, and lived off of the sun's energy since June 18th, 1995. That is right, he has not eaten solid food in 12 years. He has been studied by various researchers, such as the Thomas Jefferson University, and the University of Pennsylvania. Not only have they found his claims to be true, but medical evidence suggests this man is more healthy than a normal person of his age. This year he is 76.
How does he do it? The ancient practice of sun gazing. Doctor's found his neurons were active, and not dying. His pineal gland is actually growing, not shrinking, which is very unusual in someone over the age of fifty. The greatest average in someone over fifty, is a pineal size of 6×6 mm, HRM's is 8×11 mm.
http://www.lockergnome.com/shadowmyt...re-at-the-sun/
--------------------------------
SUNLIGHT WILL HELP HEAL YOUR EYES
"Gazing directly into the sun actually improves sight and aids in overcoming disease,," wrote Dr. Herbert Shelton.
WITHOUT SUNLIGHT YOU WILL DIE"Without sunshine, there would be no life possible on earth," writes Dr. Edwin Flatto. The sun provides the basis for all life on earth.
The sun is the source of energy for all plants, and indirectly, for all animals. Sunlight purifies water, air and the surfaces of objects.
"Shut up the strongest man in a dark dungeon, and he becomes pale like a corpse, his blood loses its vitality, and he is liable to scrofulous disease. He loses the power of resisting disease influences," wrote Dr. Thomas Low Nichols.
"Take away the sunlight and all life on earth would soon perish. Deprived of sunlight, man loses physical vigor and strength and will develop a disinclination for activity," wrote Dr. Herbert Shelton. Shelton wrote that the "jailbird" who has been locked in his cell for sometime with a lack of sunlight, is in line for disease and will waste away.
Feed two animals the same diet but keep one in a dark closet and allow the other to be out in the sunshine. The animal that's kept in the closet will be weak, stunted and die prematurely.
FOR BEST RESULTS WHEN EXPOSED TO SUNLIGHT, DO NOT USE EYEGLASSES, SUNGLASSES, SUNLAMPS, SUNSCREENS, SUNTAN LOTIONS OR TANNING PILLS
Eyeglasses and contact lenses rob you of energy by blocking some of the ultra violet rays that travel through the eyes to the pineal gland, writes Patricia McCormac.
After discontinuing wearing his eyeglasses, Dr. John Ott writes that he exposed his eyes to the sunlight without lenses. His vision was much improved. He recommended similar therapy to his friends and they received similar improvement in their vision. Ott writes that nothing should block out the full spectrum of sunlight, no glasses of any kind to block the ultra violet rays, and especially, no dark glasses.
Sunglasses block healing ultra-violet light and thus contribute to the increased incidence of blindness and eye disease in this country, writes Dr. Jacob Liberman.
Suntan lotions should not be used because they can cause cancer, writes Dr. Zane R. Kime.
"Artificial sun-lamps can do irreparable damage. None of the lamps, regardless of the price, contain more than a few of the rays found in the sun. The ultra-violet rays, because of their short length in artificial lamps, can be very harmful," writes Dr. William Esser.
Sunscreen may actually increase the risk of cancer, so proposed California researchers in a paper published in January, 1993, in the Annals of Epidemiology. The researchers contended that UVB- blocking sunscreens had contributed to increasing skin-cancer rates, by disabling the body's natural alarm mechanism: sunburn. The researchers also posited that because UVB rays are the main source of vitamin D, and because vitamin D may inhibit the progression of melanoma, and because sunscreens block UVB rays- sunscreens might promote vitamin D deficiencies and cause melanomas. (UVB is the shorter wavelength of ultraviolet light that damages the skin. UVA is the longer of the two types of ultraviolet light that reaches the earth. UVA is responsible for tanning.)
In a study in the Journal of the National Cancer Institute in January,1993, researchers from the University of Texas M.D. Anderson Cancer Center applied three common types of sunscreen to mice and then exposed most of them to sunlamps twice a week for three weeks. Melanoma cells were then injected into all the mice. The mice exposed to the ultraviolet (UV) rays, even if they were treated with sunscreen, had a higher incidence of melanoma than those not exposed to UV rays. The researchers theorized that sunscreens may allow enough UV to penetrate the skin to suppress the immune response and/or damage DNA, thus allowing tumors to develop.

http://www.falconblanco.com/sungazing/manekji.htm

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/sungazing/

http://www.rawpaleodiet.org/sungazing/

Courtesy of Drifter.

[analog]

Deer Analog,

Are you saying there are killer deer out there and that if we don't kill them first they'll kill us and our families? Is that right? So should we kill all of the terrorist deer, so that its safe again to drive the gas burnin, air polutin, monster truck down the oil soaked tar highway for my over fat cheeseburger eatin underexercised family can get out and enjoy nature again? Or just half of em? How many deer should we kill?
Do you think mankind can manage nature better than itself, cause we sure gotta ways to go, don't ya think?
Maybe we should leave the managin of deer to nature and try simply to get out of her and the deers way, thats what I think.

Deerest me,

=
MJA

Mickey,

I think you've taken my post a bit out of context, which doesn't surprise me. There are well populated places where the overpopulation of game animals due to not having natural predators along with strict hunting laws, or lack of interest by the locals, has allowed deer to be the number one cause of car accidents within the county or possibly even state (which raises insurance rates), and I've also seen a few well developed suburban areas petitioning for hunters to come and help manage the numbers around their homes (hunting in their yards), due to the incompatibility of some aspects of nature with modern society. Feral hogs are probably the best case example of the devastating effects one species can have if their breeding habits are more efficient than the balance supplied by a predator, as can be seen with the situation in many states, and is perhaps most noticeable in Hawaii where they are causing the extinction of varying species of vegetation and the animals which used to survive on such vegetation along with polluting their much needed fresh water supply. Overpopulation also has negative effects on a species due to insufficient food sources relative to numbers, whereby disease, malnutrition, stunted growth, etc, become common within a group. The Department of Wildlife and Fisheries actually oversee the management of animals within the U.S., working with wildlife biologist and such to set limits on the number of animals taken, and to ensure the safety of protected species.

Nature can definitely manage itself, but when left to do so, it shows no favoritism other than that suggested by Darwin (i.e. survival of the fittest). We seem to have the ability to effect the outcome of such things (as suggested by Wick) to the point that we must be responsible for our actions or lack thereof, which allows for such debates as the one we're having here. How do we manage such responsibility? Many concepts which seem more naturally pleasing, humane, etc, for us to do are often counter productive to our own numbers, and the survival of ourselves as a species, relative to the ecological, economic and social infrastructures required for the sustainment of such. I don't have the answers, but I can recognize the depth of the problem.

Ultimately, we're merely a part of nature, and perhaps we should just continue to be and play that part which we've played since we've been on this Earth as Greg suggests, as outlined by our earliest of ancestors. For someone to suggest a different role for us, which was more aesthetically pleasing to their ideals, then they should address the effects of such a change as it pertained to removing us from such an established role, and placing us within another.

As a few of us here have suggested, there are ecological, societal and economical concerns, among others we probably haven't mentioned, which must be addressed in order for a society to change in such drastic and dramatic ways. IMHO, if suddenly tomorrow everyone began to adopt, even gradually, the vegetarian/vegan ideals, our ecological, social or economic infrastructure couldn't support such changes, and we would see a collapse of many systems both environmentally and socially. Meat is such a high percentage of our diet that we probably couldn't produce enough vegetables to replace it for years to come. Then there is the question of that being a good strategy to place all of our nutritional eggs in the one agricultural basket, which is prone to many disasters, which could cause severe food shortages.

Being a vegetarian, vegan or whatever is fine for some, but I don't see it as a higher-level view, as though all others who choose to do differently are wrong in some way, and the dynamics of an entire society adopting such ideals would have implications in many more areas of nature than most idealist, such as yourself, generally acknowledge.

later,

Tim

[melanie]

The earth is being over populated by people...why?
because they are artificial kept alive by science.
That is contrary to natures law.

Artificial life becomes a fast society, help I can't slow down.
Got to keep up with the jones.
Fast emotions equals emotions associated with fast visuals, fast words, fast breathing, fast heart-rate, is this natural living..?
Or is it artificially created.

if suddenly tomorrow everyone began to adopt, even gradually, the vegetarian/vegan ideals,

our ecological, social or economic infrastructure couldn't support such changes, and we would see a collapse of many systems both environmentally and socially.

The social economic environment is already collapsing even before any idea of adopting a diet change.
It's collapsing because there are other factors playing a destructive scenario in our environment.
They are - over-population and over-consumerism.
science and technology is responsible for both these problems.
World population was less than 1 billion in the year 1800.

Nature had its way of controlling population through disease and death caused by bacteria and virus.
When man made medicines- antibiotics he created disaster - population increased very rapidly.
In the absence of "Industrial Agriculture"
the feeding capacity of soil would have kept population under control.
If Industrial Revolution had not happened, environmental destruction due to production of consumer goods would not exist.
In the absence of science, technology and"Industrial Revolution"
we would not be facing the two problems that have caused destruction of ecosystems overpopulation and overconsumerism.

Humans are incapable of making solutions.
Humans have always created problems.
All solutions of Man have actually been problems in disguise - they have led to bigger and greater problems.
The quest for a solution is the biggest problem in itself.
People do not need to be pumped full of drugs to keep them alive sane and healthy.
A good brisk walk in the sunshine will do that.
The ''Industrial Revolution'' has all been a big fat lie..IMHO
We don't want plastic wrappings for our food products.
We don't want plastic this and plastic that.
Massive plastic cartons for 1 tablespoon of yogurt, what a joke.

Welcome to the rise of the machines.
Artificial Intelligence.
Don't let them make the choices.



..............later

[MJA]

Thanks Timmy for your thoughts,

But as for me I'll never see deer as dangerous and wish to kill them like you suggest. I do see cars as dangerous as well as the people who drive them. How many killer deer are there in the world I wonder, more than the 7 billion of us?
What's out of control Timmy the deer or us?

As far as change goes, I'm gonna be Just like Gandhi. I'm gonna be the change I wish to see in the world. You see I am a vegetarian, I am a humanitarian, an equalitarian, I gave up tobacco, alcohol, any drugs, I sold my car for the good of the environment, all for the health of myself which is equally for the health of others, the planet, and the deer as well. Can't run them over anymore either. I'm gonna live the healthy truth I have found, and help by sharing with others what is truly and so simply right for me. And I'm gonna hope someday the world does the same. And that's all One can truly do.
Be equal, be free,

=
MJA

PS: Did you know that happiness is synonomous with health?
Just another goody to share!!!