Vegetarianism is a Higher level View

[Vincent Wee-Foo]

This is simply a description of the food chain.

All Species require energy ... or die.

Plankton, algae, slime, etc get their energy from the sun or from the remaining heat within the earth resulting from its cataclysmic formation.

The Earth consists of Rocks, metals and water (general statement)

When the first life forms left the sea they colonised rock. Their dead bodies formed the first soils. Other species adapted to live in, and on these soils (organic material)

Fauna adapted to live on both flora and fauna. And Flora lives on soils.

Both Flora and Fauna donate their bodies back to the earthworms to be converted back to soils on their death.

Why is this not correct ?? And where do you see a break of any significance in this food chain.

The carbon cycle explains this ??

Many species switch between predator carnivores, herbivores, and omnivores as they speciate.

Mouse >> Carnivorous Dog >> Whale ...
grains >> meat >> plankton

Total time to evolve about 70 million years. This is an adaptation to circumstance.

Thanks Vincent ... look forward to your reply

cool bananas ... greg

All species, flora and fauna, (bar the phyto-plankton who get their energy from the sun) dine on each other

Agreed with this. I thought you was saying all species literally ate each other alive. LOL.

All Species require energy ... or die.

On this energy requirement aspect for humanity, the University of Chigcago in a study found out categorically that vegetarian diet is more energy-efficient than meat diet and it is better for the environments. Please note that I am merely stating an educated findng and I do not imply anything else.

[Vincent Wee-Foo]

I think that we have agreed ... so far .. that what we are discussing can only be, in the main a subjective view. That is .. we are discussing ourselves, and we are therefore subject to our own limitations in arriving at a conclusion.

You summarizes it very well.

I cannot state anything as 'necessary' or an absolute fact and be certain of such even tho I use these terms for discussion. OK ?
greg

I can see that you have done some research on this before and you have presented the sequence of events logically and reasonably for discussions and to develop further understanding.

As long as you agrees that one cannot state anything as necessary or an absolute fact on a conjecture, and the hypothesis forwarded are educated guess for further investigation to find out more, I can swing with your theory.

Best to you.

[MJA]

This is a reasonable view that correlates with the observation. Like this view of yours, I would also prefer to make educated assessment rationally based on accurate facts with correct logic within reasonable doubts, on a pragmatic basis with empirical studies on how things are developing on Earth for humanity, how I saw it IMO in a general view can be found in my web page on OWNER.

Best regards,

Hi Vincent,

I prefer plain old simple common sense. Truth, good and right, just, equality, health and happiness, liberation or freedom is best lived that way; simply without the compounance, without the clouding complexities, without uncertainties or doubts.
A vegitarian diet is simply the right thing to do, for the good of All is the good of One or Oneself.

=
MJA


Equal is truly the right Way to go.

[labelwench]

Hello all,

While working last night, I was putting up the coupons, one being for "veggie burgers", a decent brand. I asked the Dept. Manager to take me to the product and asked if she could recommend it. Unfortunately not, she does not eat "processed food."

So I read the ingredients list. I have been researching nutrition for a significant portion of my life.

Soy protein isolate - I don't think so.......
A whole bunch of other chemicals that are better suited to embalming or drain cleaning.

I eat fresh and frozen fruit and vegetables. Only butter, olive oil or lard. Beef, chicken, eggs, mozzarella, uncoloured cheeses in moderation, minimal fish, pork and organ meat. Very few things from a can, kippers, tuna, chilli.

Rye bread with no added wheat flour. No white bread, cakes, cookies etc. with the exception of pastry (mostly fat) very seldom.

Red wine and chocolate.

On the rare occasion that I dine out, a Chef's salad or a Chicken Caesar.

I won't mention my age except to say that I can run circles around most that are only half of it. (And kick their lazy butts when they are text messaging and making googly eyes on work time. I don't need to do their work too!)

I already eat a consideraby healthier diet than many and if I am to become a vegetarian by choice or neccessity, here in the Yukon, the arguments and the product choices are going to have to improve.

Thank you for the opportunity to share my thoughts on this subject.

Labelwench

[MJA]

Regarding the humaneness of a vegetarian diet, Ms. Ingred Newkirk president and founder of PETA has written a new book Entitled 'One Can Make a Difference" which I highly as in higher level recommend.
It's a wonderful compellation of essays written by people famous and some obscure who have made a difference in the world by following their hearts and sharing their love with the rest of the world. A process of living by sharing their passions and the change it makes in the world.

There is one essay written by Dr.Neal Barnard who founded 'Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine" who has made it his life to teach people the health benefits of a vegetarian diet. If your looking for scientific evidence of a veggie diet, you need look no further than him.He's written several books on the subject such as 'Food for Life' which is another guide to a healthier, happier life.

One can make a difference which is my reason for this thread.
For your health is for the betterment of All,
All is truly One,

=
MJA

[labelwench]

Hello MJA,

Dr. Neal Barnard also authored "The Power of Your Plate", almost two decades ago. The most helpful dialogue is through the sharing of instructional material supported by personal experience, allowing the reader to come to their own conclusions, especially as everyone's circumstances are unique to that individual.

Some questions that I have been meaning to ask: In discussing Vegetarianism, there are several sub-classifications.

Are you advocating the total Vegan diet, or do you perceive that some animal products that do not require the death of the individual might be deemed acceptable if the animals so involved were managed in an acceptably humane manner?

Where does wool fit into this paradigm?

What about honey?

Dairy products?

I thank you in advance for your considered response.

Labelwench

[austintorn@aol.com]

I do now remember a story about horses, although it was more about a bear.

Shortly after arriving at the camp, we rode our horses down the faint path of the trail around the mountain, foolishly leaving all of our weapons behind since our bear hunting licenses were only good for the morrow.

We were almost around the mountain when, suddenly, the horses reared up and stood their ground in alarm. Someone was chaining a dead 2000 pound mule to a tree to use as bait for the legendary grizzlies of this region; but, he was not yet prepared for hunting, either, nor for the bear that had just appeared, standing and roaring to his full height of over nine feet.

The bear wanted the mule, but the luckless would-be hunter was now in the way. I had to admire the cool of the hunter, though, as he stood his ground and pulled out a measly 38 pistol.

Sitting upon our horses, we cursed ourselves, for we havd rifles and 357 magnums back at the camp, not that they would deflect the bear’s adrenaline at this close range any more that the 38 pea shooter.

The hunter waved us back, indicating that he would cover our retreat and he soon fired a shot into the ground just in front of the bear as a kind of a hopless warning. Well, the bear growled all the more and his long claws appeared as he roared, the flesh around them retracting to reveal their full and deadly length. The grizzley took a mighty swipe upon the ground at the spot where the bullet had landed and gouged out a large hole in just one dig. We backed up a bit and so did the hunter, being careful not to move away too fast.

We inched ever on backwards, trying to get clear, although fully realizing that a bear could outrun a horse. When the hunter was far enough away, as well, the bear raced for the mule, ripping it off its chains and digging a hole and burying it in a mater of a few minutes.

Our horses would not go forward, and so we had to go all the way back around the mountain.

(Next time: Death knocks on my door once again the following day.)

[MJA]

Hello MJA,

Dr. Neal Barnard also authored "The Power of Your Plate", almost two decades ago. The most helpful dialogue is through the sharing of instructional material supported by personal experience, allowing the reader to come to their own conclusions, especially as everyone's circumstances are unique to that individual.

Some questions that I have been meaning to ask: In discussing Vegetarianism, there are several sub-classifications.

Are you advocating the total Vegan diet, or do you perceive that some animal products that do not require the death of the individual might be deemed acceptable if the animals so involved were managed in an acceptably humane manner?

Where does wool fit into this paradigm?

What about honey?

Dairy products?

I thank you in advance for your considered response.

Labelwench

Thanks for responding so positively, it's not always the case as you probably have seen. Thanks also for your interest in knowing the diet I see right for me.

I've only been a vegetarian for 4 years or so. It took a long time for me to ween myself off the meat diet I had grown up with, the diet I had been taught to eat. To this day the smell of a BBQ is hard for me to resist. But I know also it is truly more healthy to live or eat this way.

And speaking of my own Way, I like to say I don't eat things that have eye balls, for if they can see then they can think, and if they can think then they can feel, and if they can feel then it surely must hurt them to know that we kill and eat them. And then how could I?
Ya, I'm a humanitarian for sure.
But I think my future is headed towards a vegan diet as I see it an even better Way to go. Life is that Way for me, a natural progession toward right, toward truth. I have noticed to that the closer I get to nature, the close it comes to me. Oneness is truly good to be.

Thanks again,

=
MJA

[labelwench]

Just for Austin,

With apologies in advance to the rest of viewers.

Agricultural History Series
Missouri State University


1904 St. Louis World's Fair

Mule Show

Nearly twenty breeders from Missouri, Kentucky, Tennessee, Arkansas, and a few from other states had mules on exhibit at the 1904 World’s Fair. More than 1,000 of these animals were on exhibit to attract the attention of numerous visitors. Exposition grounds opened for the reception of mules on Thursday, August 18. Exhibition of the mules began on Wednesday, August 24th and closed on Wednesday, August 31st. No judging of mules took place on Saturday or Sunday, August 27th and 28th.

Newspapers bragged that Missouri, by far, had the monopoly of producing the finest mules in the world! Mules of every type and variety were shown—all bred with the Missouri characteristics, “without which no mule can ever attain real greatness” in show or strength. The vast majority of Missouri mules came from the counties of Audrain, Boone, Callaway, and Pike. Superiority of Missouri mules was attributed to the State’s plentiful and nutritious bluegrass and waters that flow over vast beds of limestone. This fact, along with clever planning, was said to make the Missouri mule one that could not be surpassed.

The standard features, as described by the Missouri Star, of the Missouri mule measured somewhere around 16 hands “from top of the wither to the bottom of the forefoot.” Mules could range in size from a mere 11 hands to an impressive 13 ¾ hands of the largest specimen recognized to date. The mules normally displayed colorings of black or bay, although colors of gray and sorrel are sometimes witnessed. The sheen of the mules’ coats was said to be quite remarkable compared to thoroughbred horses.



"Lill", shown by J. P. Wilson, Wellsville, MO. 17 hands, 1,560 pounds.

Missouri breeders were able to back up their boasts as the Missouri mules won many of the top awards at the World’s Fair. In fact there was so much excitement over Missouri’s mules that there was a full-page article about them in the September 11, 1904, St. Louis Star newspaper. The article included photos of some of Missouri’s best mules including Missouri Queen, the largest mule in the world, with a height of 18 ¾ hands and weight of 2,300 pounds. W. H. Elgin, of Platte City, Missouri, was the proud owner of the Champion Mule Team of Missouri. “Kate”, from Callaway was pictured standing proudly outside one of the exhibition halls

Platte City breeder, William A. Elgin, made a notable impression at the Universal Exposition. Mr. Elgin had worked his way up through the ranks. His career began in 1874 when he worked by the month and rented farms for ten years. Genius in the mule business earned him the money to purchase forty acres of land in 1884. Continued success helped his land holding to grow to 760 acres. Three years prior to the Fair, Elgin bought several good young mules. From that point he began to fit them for their showing at the ages of four and five years of age at the 1904 World’s Fair. These mules took home virtually all of the blue ribbons for classes for mule sixteen hands and over.



Topsy, Cart winner for William Elgin

The excellence of mules bred in Missouri had been recognized as early as the 1840s. The phrase “Missouri Mule” was coined (or at least popularized) at the 1904 World’s Fair to give these animals from the Show-Me State due recognition. One authority on jack stock and mules at the fair, General J. L. Jones, was quoted saying about the exhibits of mules he observed, “The like of which I have never seen nor ever expect to see.”

Prize money awarded for first place in the 15 various judged mule sections ranged from $35 to $150. First prize mule winners for the various categories are as follows:

Mule--Four years or over. Mollie: Exhibitor William A. Elgin, Platte City, MO.

Mule--Three years and under four. Lill: Exhibitor J. P. Wilson, Wellsville, MO.

Mule--Two years and under three. May: Exhibitor Blackburn & Jones, Warrensburg, MO.

Mule--One year and under two. Colbert: Exhibitor Blackburn & Jones.

Mule--Under one year. Exhibitor Womack Brothers, Fulton, MO.

Single Mule--Fourteen and not over fifteen hands. Exhibitor Blackburn & Jones.

Single Mule--Fifteen and not over sixteen hands. Blanche: Exhibitor Barth M. Barnett and J. W. Gasewelle, Gallatin, MO.

Single Mule--Sixteen hands or over. Exhibitor William A. Elgin.

Single Mule--Sixteen hands or over to cart. Exhibitor William A. Elgin.

Pair Mules--Fifteen and not over sixteen hands to wagon. Bird and Blanche: Barth M. Barnett and J. W. Gasewelle.

Pair Mules--Sixteen hands or over to wagon. Exhibitor William A. Elgin.

Three Mules abreast to wagon. Exhibitor William A. Elgin.

Four Mule team to wagon--Wheelers weighing 1200 pounds or over. Exhibitor William A. Elgin.

Six Mule team to wagon--Wheelers weighing 1200 pounds or over. Exhibitor William A. Elgin.

Mules were also seen at other places on the fairgrounds. One of the best examples is the 20 Mule Team Borax mules:



References: The St. Louis Star. September 11, 1904. World's Fair Bulletin. July, October, 1904. Ashton, John. History of Jackstock and Mules in Missouri. Missouri State Board of Agriculture, 1924.

This page was designed by Jennifer Deane and is maintained by Lyndon Irwin.

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[labelwench]

Thank you for sharing, MJA,

I don't think you quite addressed the following, however.

Whenever you have the time and just as a matter of interest. I am seeking the areas of middle ground in an evolving ideology.

As you readily admit, you were raised with meat and it has been a path of learning for you.

Life is ever about change, which discomfits many. By sharing as we go, we can alleviate many concerns.

Where does wool fit into this paradigm?

What about honey?

Dairy products?

I thank you in advance for your considered response.

Labelwench