at what a TOE can support this universe

[SteveA]

I also think that the only relevant component in the picture is the universe - to whatever extent something is fundamentally and forever disconnected form anything that could ever influence "Here and Now" would appear to only have a value in terms of speculating when exists within the universe and there should be no manner to reference, from within the universe anything outside of it - so if the concept of something outside the universe is itself something within the universe, then its not something referencable.

There's an interesting little thought experiment that seems to imply it might be impossible to even refer to the concept of a true disconnection and that for all intents and purposes within the realm of reasoning, everything exists as related in a single form.

As an example, imagine that there could exist some form of disconnected universe and nothing in this universe had any relationship, influence, property etc. in common.

In that case, we could say that if these truly had nothing in common, then such an alternate universe would be determined to specifically not be any of those properties here. Well that, in itself, implies a relationship exists and that a line of contrast exists shared between them.

If we instead looked at it that such a disconnection could not specifically deny anything here from existing there and each could freely exist independent of the other, then nothing would appear to deny them from possessing common properties and being superimposed or overlapping in unconstrained ways (that could potentially be similar to a source of entropy or energy).

In either event, it appears the concept of a true separation leads to paradoxes and this would make sense considering that any form of logic structure (such as attempting to place specific properties to the concept of a disconnection) describes something interrelated and not (entirely) disconnected.

So it would appear there's really no rational/logical manner to even indirectly reference something outside of a singular structure. The areas that can appear to be disconnected would seem to instead be degrees of freedom that aren't yet determined.

On the other hand, I assume that there can also exist things and properties that could appear irrational to us here because the language and concepts we're using in this discussion can be abstract and indirect representations of more fundamental processes (though I think there is still a logic involved in that but that we might never be able to determine it precisely, just like no matter what information is sent over the internet, it's always restricted by the protocol used to interprete it (which should be the common TCP/IP protocal for the internet). Someone could alter how their computer interpretes the information, but that doesn't alter how the information is interpreted elsewhere and even for components shared in common, what was shared is still determined by ones own "system" and never loses a relationship to that initial.

The only way to alter that would appear to require something entirely irrational (not even like magic in any conventional sense but something outside the realm of comprehension or coherent interaction with) and even then, a change in terms of something occuring at some moment of time would still require that it be something compatible with ones manner of perceiving time/change and that would appear to be something that, itself, isn't altered by events occur within time.

To me, the most influencial 'dictator' around would appear to be ones own manner of perceiving time (and that's likely even what determines how laws of physics appear ... at a minimum, it makes some of the social power games going here seem almost trivially insignificance in terms of physical control, but I don't think the ideal it to have trivial insignificance and if ones values are added to the picture, then things can shift quite significantly and that's a good thing IMO I personally enjoy being highly biased and retaining lots of interests and I believe it's also a value seeing others with their own unique values, but on a broad enough view there may not be such biases except scales of size - the infinite potential of an empty void or an isolated point are almost the same except from which perspective is taken - a space of diverse and unique things with different values is a nice combination IMO and the main challenge is simply in finding ones own preferences ... what does ones "home" look like? It could be nice to see a lot of diverse present problems resolved in order to "move on" in terms of some challenges, but at the same time, I don't think there's any reason to "leave home" in that respect and it's just a matter of figuring out how ones own preferences can fit in with a broader picture - being able to both see a broader view as well as retain a unique perspective of it is synergistic, IMO and in that respect there shouldn't truly be any form of self-sacrifice, ones own values, desires and capabilities should be retained and these are simply enhanced by including those of others in the picture as well).

To me it seems that the significant challenges for humanity are not in meeting natural survival needs. The challenges have become largely social (and problems in this respect can lead toward problems of meeting basic needs). Challenges can be enjoyed, but if these are accepted rather blindly and without direction, then they don't lead much of anywhere specific and that can lead to challenges that are not necessarily enjoyed, but with some foresight it seems that not only can present challenges be met more efficiently, but a greater ability to be selective in these can exist as well.

If there's no reduction of the present state and all motions are fundamentally "forward" toward a growth or increase in some respect, then those shifts should be toward an ability to pay greater attention and apply greater intelligence to efficiently communicate and coordinate the pursuit of discoverying a greater appreciation of the acquisition of longer term goals as well as the satisfaction of accomplishing intermediate steps toward realizations of those and an increased capability of memory to place all these in context and see where one has come from.

If there's an appearance of a reduction involved, it's in the relative measure of times and energies devoted toward conflicting aspects of the above .

I happen to also believe that most any form of life on Earth has fundamentally similar drives and pursuits - various physical translations of it may not always appear to agree and limitations in understanding and coordination can place short term interests at odds and day to day details don't give a good large scale view, but I think I've got enough evidence to see that there's a 'gameplan' and that not all directions on the compass are created equally - some directions extend infinitely far and likely contain storylines both past and future that we only get occasional glimpses of ... given the choice of having that compass or not, I personally like it better with the compass (Even if the winds blow things around some)

My wife got me a bathrobe as a Christmas present and I like the way it feels like a nice wam hug I'm going to enjoy using it. Yes, it likely enjoys giving the hug as well ... and I guess I'll just have to let it 'do its thing'. How's that for a bit of teamwork in life? (Of course, my wife is happy to see me enjoying it as well. I'm certain someone else enjoyed being able to make and trade it for things they desired and that chain of influence could likely be traced back to whatever figurative Big Bang might have begun the universe ... some things likely wanted to get together and enjoy some company a long time ago and the rest of us are being carried along by that same desire ... it can be fun to swim against the current but it can also be enjoyable to just accept things and surf along with it. The ability to do either arises from the same fundamental drive and they're really both reflections of the same motive force)

[labelwench]

LOL.......I think I'll have to come back to this one in the morning.......

I'll bet that you can't summarize the contents into 100 words.

Bogie's favorite gambit when he's pressed for time.

[SteveA]

LOL.......I think I'll have to come back to this one in the morning.......

I'll bet that you can't summarize the contents into 100 words.

Bogie's favorite gambit when he's pressed for time.

You wouldn't REALLY want a 100 word summary though would you?

Enjoy your rest, Lorrina. Nighters

As always,
Steve

[labelwench]

My wife got me a bathrobe as a Christmas present and I like the way it feels like a nice wam hug I'm going to enjoy using it. Yes, it likely enjoys giving the hug as well ... and I guess I'll just have to let it 'do its thing'. How's that for a bit of teamwork in life? (Of course, my wife is happy to see me enjoying it as well. I'm certain someone else enjoyed being able to make and trade it for things they desired and that chain of influence could likely be traced back to whatever figurative Big Bang might have begun the universe ... some things likely wanted to get together and enjoy some company a long time ago and the rest of us are being carried along by that same desire ... it can be fun to swim against the current but it can also be enjoyable to just accept things and surf along with it. The ability to do either arises from the same fundamental drive and they're really both reflections of the same motive force)

Originally posted by SteveA

You have latent marketing talent, Steve.

'Warmer than a hug, the bathrobe with the built in snuggle.'

Some video of a fellow in the robe watching the telly and small children and the family pets all gravitating toward him and curling up to cuddle on the robe.

I think we could do something with that..........

I'm getting silly......must be time to call it a day.......manana.....

[www.yellowtab.cc]

labelwench:
now i may have a closer look at the mentioned book - in the past i was not ready for such input ...
SteveA: RAEBNC

[labelwench]

LOL........

Not even done my coffee and I have learned something new this day.

As I am not a texter (by choice, and cell phone is just a lifeline for long and lonely horseback journeys), I am unfamiliar with the new 'short speak'. I have just bookmarked a good site for Acronyms & Abbreviations .

Thank you, Unvanqx.

[SteveA]

You have latent marketing talent, Steve.

'Warmer than a hug, the bathrobe with the built in snuggle.'

Some video of a fellow in the robe watching the telly and small children and the family pets all gravitating toward him and curling up to cuddle on the robe.

I think we could do something with that..........

I'm getting silly......must be time to call it a day.......manana.....

"'Warmer than a hug, the bathrobe with the built in snuggle.'"

Not a bad marketting logo.

How about this? I could generate the 10,000 word monkies-typing-on-a-keyboard brainstorming version of the salespitch and let you compress it into a 30 second commercial?

[SteveA]

To comment a bit more on what form a TOE should likely appear as to support a universe with diverse properties connected compatibly as a single entity, the basic rule of thumb seems simply that everything should have a uniquely definable position and that if you knew how the universe was organized and the specific attributes that described an object, there should be a specific form and/or position where it exists in the universe (unique perspectives of time could have this space appear reorganized uniquely for individuals, but there should still be compatible "translations" of it for any observer).

As a quick look at a major component that should be present, consider that specific objects should exist as something within the same of all possible forms and properties that could exist (which could be a space of something similar to infinitely diverging pathways).

But let's say, for example, that you have two people who desire to exist in the same universe and one can only live at a specific latitude and the other at a specific longtitude - where could they meet up? Well it would be at the intersection of these two independent dimensions/parameters and that intersection would be similar to the origin of a common space shared between them.



Now let's say you added another constrain and increased this to an intersection in 3 dimensions:



Now this image is not truly 3 dimensional, but a 2 dimensional projection which makes one axis appear to be rotated instead of perpendicular.

Now let's say that you had to unite a potentially unlimited number of such properties and represent them in 3 dimensions as sharing a common origin. Well, we could just continue with the rotations:



Some of the higher dimensional features can be represented as extended diverse features in 3 dimensions (there some more transformations we could look at as well, but that's an interesting way of looking at what a galaxy could represent).

---------------------------------------------

I'm going to speculate that there's a way of remapping it to something like this



or similarly:



And then searching through this "tree" in realtime, looks a bit like this:

http://www.miqel.com/entheogens/dmt_...me_report.html

If you wanted to hook some of these up to a serial ethernet , here's an interesting possible view of what that could appear similar to:



.... quite a few interesting possibilities.

[labelwench]

The single topic of size and scale when applied to the universe is beyond my comprension.

Infinite in three dimensions is too big to hold in my mind.

Infinity of dimensions when added to the three which my senses are able to measure..........freezes the screen.........all motion ceases.

[SteveA]

The single topic of size and scale when applied to the universe is beyond my comprension.

Infinite in three dimensions is too big to hold in my mind.

Infinity of dimensions when added to the three which my senses are able to measure..........freezes the screen.........all motion ceases.

Thank you for the comment and you make an excellent point, none of that is infinite - it's just an incredible puzzle to try to untangle (to whatever extent might be most enjoyable ) ... the incredible part is that anything is experienced to change/move.

Then again, that's not the only manner in which infinite aspects can be presented. The various characteristic qualities of experience, though they could potentially be arranged similar to a number line, alphabet or discrete spectrum in terms of how we can objectively communicate about them, that still doesn't explain how they exist as experienced in specific manners. That appears similarly required to explain how we can have perceive extensions of time or space (for example, if all parts of the sky were of an identical shade, there would appear to be no capability to determine distances or see a depth to the sky and seeing such a sky would probably "feel" like having a single color pasted over the eyes and being effectively blind - it's the quantity of different hues that allows for a perception of such detail to exist).

As another analogy, if we write the numbers 1,2,3,... on one hand, this seems pretty natural to conceive of counting, but if we look at the specific shapes of the symbols selected to represent these counts it seems entirely arbitrary. We could have decided that counting began with these symbols instead %, $, @, ...

In a similarly manner, why does touching something have a specific feel versus being experienced in some other manner like seeing or hearing something or some other sensation that might be entirely incomparable with classes of experience that one could be familiar with.

The nice part about it though is that there's no need to worry about anything other than ones own little tiny speck in it ... if that's found, the rest of it fits together perfectly (That's all you need - every speck has it's own version of how things should be and I'm rather certain that it's rather literally true that one man's trash is another man's treasure, but as you know I'm talking very broadly and abstractly and things of value can include much more than just things that can be easily pointed to, but instead can include diverse qualities and manners of their interactions over time as well as evolutionary properties of these etc. ... of course that can easily resemble how life is experienced)

P.S. I actually think that we provide each other with different qualities of experience and that the universe is like a smorgasbord where everything brought its own unique "texture" of experience. The "best" one is not any of those but being able to find a way to fit all of them into ones own special recipe or favorite dish (I'm still working on what my own secret sauce might be ... probably a tad sweet and sour, not too mushy and slightly crispy. It can't be raw either ... needs some slow cooking ... maybe a wee bit of smoke flavoring, and then of course it also comes with a massive book of other ideas that has room for more recipes to be tried out and a garden that hasn't even been seen completely. On the other hand, I've already got some favorites that'll keep me busy for quite a while and there's really not much need to wander off too far. You've got to be able to sit down, relax and enjoy it too )

Have fun, Lorrina.