On TOEs, Higher Powers, Computers, & etc.

[wildman]

The interesting thing about TOEs is that every time someone comes out with a new theory that explains the world or universe that is comprehensive in any way, shape, or form, (and this includes group or concensus theories), it is hailed as "The Theory of EVERYTHING" and we always seem to discover a half-dozen more questions that it doesn't answer. My thought is that it is probably impossible to discover Everything, not only that, but I think it would be a bad idea anyway; after all if you've discovered EVERYTHING, what else is there? Strikes me that that would be rather boring. Also there would be the everpresent danger of a somebody or group of somebodies getting control of Everything and making paradise for themselves and purgatory for the rest of us, (the human race is still after all, the human race).

And yes, the TOE would affect religion, after all, what is science but the process of discovering the structure that the Higher Power (God the Father, for me) gave to the universe and the physical rules by which it (the universe)operates. In fact my particular brand of Christianity, while it doesn't state this outright, by its doctrine does seem to imply that once you attain the highest level, there's something more. But, as I see it, I'll find that out when I get there, so I'll do what I'm supposed to do here and worry about there when I get there.

Actually, I do have one heretical worry, and that is finding out that this is a more perfect version of "SimWorld" on some perfect computer and that the fellows upstairs have been having a blast watching our collective lunacy.

Signed,
The Wildman

[SinJin]

In fact my particular brand of Christianity, while it doesn't state this outright, by its doctrine does seem to imply that once you attain the highest level, there's something more.

I think that belief goes for a lot of things. For example in science, if we find a TOE, for instance one master equation that explains the universe, then the question "where did that TOE come from?" will arise. Was it created/developed by/from something even higher up? Or has it always been around? Unless we somehow get a definite answer that it has always been around and is the last rung of the ladder, I think we can and should always ponder whether there is another level above the one we understand/strive for.

[tornado_sun]

I absolutely believe in what WildMan has said to us about the way we think of the TOE.Anybuddy there would be able to give me an introduction of the after-giving TOE to the world 'cuz there'll be no more thing to be investigated !....!

[subversion]

The interesting thing about TOEs is that every time someone comes out with a new theory that explains the world or universe that is comprehensive in any way, shape, or form, (and this includes group or concensus theories), it is hailed as "The Theory of EVERYTHING" and we always seem to discover a half-dozen more questions that it doesn't answer. My thought is that it is probably impossible to discover Everything, not only that, but I think it would be a bad idea anyway; after all if you've discovered EVERYTHING, what else is there? Strikes me that that would be rather boring.

The TOE will not tell us every single little thing there is to know. For example, it will not tell us what the next drug will be to treat ADD, or something obscure like that. However, what it will tell us is all the most basic fundamental questions about nature, such as how nature operates and how it began. This is really the most central question to the TOE which most people tend to dodge, "how and why did the universe begin?" When we know the answer to this question we will understand what we mean when we say the word God. So while a theory that tells you how to calculate which Quarter-Horse will win at the All-American Futurity will never exist, we can indeed develop a theory that tells us the most fundamental things about the universe such as how it began and how it operates. That is what the TOE is.

As for the world being boring after the TOE, well, that will be far from the truth. Please refer to the quote at the end of my posts.

Also there would be the everpresent danger of a somebody or group of somebodies getting control of Everything and making paradise for themselves and purgatory for the rest of us, (the human race is still after all, the human race).

Good observation. So you're saying we would be at the mercy of he who created the TOE?

Actually, I do have one heretical worry, and that is finding out that this is a more perfect version of "SimWorld" on some perfect computer and that the fellows upstairs have been having a blast watching our collective lunacy.

Don't get too far ahead of yourself Nostradamus, you're gonna spoil it for the rest of us

until next time, sleep easy

-subversion

[wildman]

Good observation. So you're saying we would be at the mercy of he who created the TOE?

Thank you, however, the TOE will not be created it will be Discovered and we will not nessesarily be at the mercy of whoever discovers it, merely whoever controls the knowledge and/or makes first use of it. The two, however, are not mutually exclusive.

The TOE will not tell us every single little thing there is to know.

You're right, human foibles are human foibles. It will not tell us how so & so will react to such & so or even which horse will win, on the other hand, if you're a member of the 10% or less of the population who know about and understand the TOE, you can probably calculate how to make sure that it's this here hoss that wins th' race w/o anybody else the wiser.

This is really the most central question to the TOE which most people tend to dodge, "how and why did the universe begin?"

An interesting thought, quite often I have problems with the word "begin" in this context as I have the feeling that knowledge of the ultimate beginning MAY be unattainable (but that don' keep us from tryin'). I tend to lean towards the "Pulsating Universe" theory That I read about in (believe it or not) 5th grade. At the time, there were three:

Steady State -- Eveready, it just keeps going & going -- Too many holes.
Big Bang -- What was there before? What happens after X number of years, does it just peter out and stall?
Pulsating -- Series of Big Bangs -- continuity, you've got a decent idea of what went before (yer livin' in it). When it stalls, it all falls back in, reaches critical, goes BANG, and here we go again folks.

That last provides the starting point for my TOE, which is a bit more complex and still in concept phase.

At this point it boils down to -- Define: "Beginning"

The Wildman

[subversion]

excuse my improper use of wording, the TOE will be correctly discovered, not created. Semantics.

Let me ask you this question, would you be at the mercy of somebody who did not choose to reveal the TOE because he was afraid of who might control it?

ps. the universe can indeed be viewed as cyclical or pulsating as you say, however, the cycle still must have an origination. If you find out how the universe originated then you will have your TOE. Everything must have a cause my friend, everything must have a cause.

[wildman]

Let me ask you this question, would you be at the mercy of somebody who did not choose to reveal the TOE because he was afraid of who might control it?

If the discoverer chooses not to reveal the TOE or use it, never mind the reason, then how is he a threat?

ps. the universe can indeed be viewed as cyclical or pulsating as you say, however, the cycle still must have an origination. If you find out how the universe originated then you will have your TOE. Everything must have a cause my friend, everything must have a cause.

That's my point, what caused the cause? What caused that cause?...ad infinitum.

The Wildman

[subversion]

he is not a threat it's just that without the TOE humanity is doomed to die

[davidgow77]

Strikes me that that would be rather boring. Also there would be the everpresent danger of a somebody or group of somebodies getting control of Everything and making paradise for themselves and purgatory for the rest of us, (the human race is still after all, the human race).


Signed,
The Wildman

I would say to this that if someone did get control over human society in this way, like Christ did for us, he would put only himself through the purgatory of hell and bring all the suffering of the world upon his own shoulders. This is what it means when they say "Christ died for our sins".... he removes the misunderstanding people have by showing them how the world should truly work, and then takes whatever punishment, whther due or undue, upon his own mind, soul and body. It's not a fair trade, but that is why we would call him a Christ.... an annointed one. Once he had paved the way to the removal of all misunderstanding, then everyone else would be free to walk it.

Of course, the second coming should be able to take advantage of modern mass media in order to get his thoughts and intentions across. He could be here right now... we just don't know. I think he is.... and I think he must be short of money to get his campaign up and running, because I know he would never do anything for money.


Peace

DG

[dustin_archibald]

The discovery of TOE is based on perspective.

Since this board seems to lean toward a Physics/Physical perspective most people here believe the TOE will be based on that. Physics/Mathematics rule the roost here. As such the "why" doesn't matter. An Observable/Predictable/Quantafiable phenomena perspective really only cares about how things work. Not why. A different name could be: A perfect model of how the universe works.

A TOE based on a spiritual perspective tends to negate the "how" and focus on the "why". It doesn't care how light moves from the sun to Earth; we get light and it is good.

A theory of all possible things must emcompass both.