[Guille]

Benedict,

Thank you for this great thread.

Music relates to TOE if you think that art is part of the TOE. I think it does, but in a strange way I'm still not sure about and can't explain. As you said, music is the representation of reality, as all art is representation of reality. All idea is representation of reality. And reality without representation is not, it is not being and time (in reference to Heidegger's book), just phenomena and event. Phenomena requiers entity and thus identity, identity requiers unity and thus comparison, negation and assertion, which are the three types of propositions, and propositions must be representation and expression. The conunction of representation and expression is the dualism thought-talk, I think this post and then right this post, you read this post and then think about this post, not about the ideas, but about the representation that this post makes of my ideas. That means that ideas have representation and expression just as the world has, but the difference is that the world is dependent on interpretations but ideas aren't. We percieve the world but we don't percieve ideas. The meaning, the pure form of ideas is not representable nor expresable, and that it has in common with reality. Culture (art, science, philosophy...) will never be able to represent or express the reality of things, only their phenomena (going back). This is a big circle of terms, of which I have explained only a minor part. But the important thing is to understand that Idea gives Dimension to Reality. Without dimensionality, there is no reality. Culture (whether art, science, or philosophy) has to understand that.

Music is the most profound art (please people don't take this as taking importance out of the other arts) because it is not percieved like the rest, visually, directly, mentally. Music is the only art, the only aspect of culture which can manage to go into the sub-consciousness. Psycology has tried for a century, and has failed. This is what I say to Freud: Requiem to psycology.

Someone said (maybe Bethoven?) that 'If god listened to music, he woul dlisten to Johan Sebastian Bach's music. But if god were a composer, he would be Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart.' and I think that this proofs partly the depth of music. The other arts depend on the composition, music depends on the way of composition, on the how of the why, not only the how of the what.

About music also Nietzsche wrote a great and very poetic-inspirational book, 'The birth of tragedy in music'.

[Benedict Broere]

Guille,

Hoping I understand you correctly I think you've made quite an interesting epistomelogical turn here. But speaking epistomelogy, it reminds me of Kant and his shuddering 'Ding an sich', the Thing in Itself, that 'something out there', also 'with us being part of it', and that we only can speak of indirectly, via our senses and brain, and that we try to explain via all kinds of fake-realities, for instance art, science, religion, philosophy and mathematics. And of course Kant is right here. At least I absolutely can't, skipping all kinds of paranormal notions, imagine myself considering, reflecting, wondering, thinking, etc., on this world without a body and brain I can do this with.

On the other hand this fake-reality helped us in the past thousands of years with our being in this reality. So it must have some merit, some adequacy. It must have something to do with reality itself, bridging the gap Kant found out.

One could also consider us human beings as a kind of speaking nature: we speak a lot about the world, lots of rubbish of course, but sometimes getting closer to the essence of things - at least we assume, we experience, we really 'know'. And well music. It easily can get underneath your skin, when you become vibe with the vibes, resonate with what is, what is going on, what it seems, but on the spot absolute reality. Take for instance 'Eine kleine Nachtmusik' by Mozart. For many maybe something dull from the past. But when listening to it, I just can't surpress the notion, feeling, deep thought, that this is a kind of universe passing by, in short, abstract, essential. This is it, thruth, reality! And it tells me more about this reality we are part of, I think at least, then for instance all the laws and constants together. That's why I think music has something to do with TOE. It gets closer. To it. To what it might be. It really is.

[harmonygirl]

I like that Benedict, speaking nature. I also agree that we speak a lot of rubbish, ostensibly designed to reach truth, but we seem to have constructed such convoluted rules in each discipline that the search seems to put us (in reality) further away from truth. Just look at logic! I think music is individual truth that reaches an aspect of the universal (or divine), unbounded by aforementioned rules.

[Benedict Broere]

Yes, I agree. I think music mirrors the same kind of playfullness by which this universe is invented. Simple themes, simple rules, and out of that huge complexity and harmonies. And with this we are like little gods mirroring the big one. Or let's say we are rudimentary creativity reflecting essential creativity. Or maybe we are only just beginning essential creativity popping up within it's own symfony. The latter is found in many mystical traditions: We are what is, looking around in it's being in expression.

[harmonygirl]

It's funny that you should say playfulness, I am spending 5 minutes a day contemplating nature (as I find it) and I had an insight on Monday that there is real laughter and joy embedded in our surroundings! It was pretty cool actually. I think music is an expression of this laughter, joy, ticklish sensation, even when it's blues music.

[chazzysaw]

I believe music to be a small demonstration of the vibrations that surround us. Music is an obvious vibration we can here and feel. There are sounds and songs being sung that we are not aware of. Depending on the frequency you're tone in on, these vibrations can be soothing. Take the chanting monks for example, it's not so important as to what they are saying. Its the vibrations from the huummmmmmmmmmmmmmm that helps their meditation.

[mkirkpatrick]

Chazzysaw, how right you are, years ago I stayed for a week in a franciscan friary, and the evening song of those brothers singing, was literally out of this world, it was beautifly haunting.

kind regards michael.

[Benedict Broere]

Harmonygirl,
Sorry to respond so late, but had lot's to do.
I admire your moment of great empathy with nature. And yes I also have sometimes this notion when zooming in on the rich world of forms and expressions in nature. In my garden lots of plants grow with great abundance, and I very much like to look at them as if it were with a microlens. Because then it is almost as if you enter their world.
In Wageningen, near where I live, there is a universitypark called the Arboretum, with trees from all over the world. They also have some huge borders with rhododendron. In spring turning to summer these plants blossom and then it's like firework. You can see, experience, that there's a party going on, a party in form and colour !
To me these experiences are not anthropomorphic projections, as others would say. It is two forms of nature - we and plants - coming together and sharing an experience.
Who ever invented this world must have joy in form, colour, flowers...
There's also a catch though. I once saw a model of Tyrannosaurus Rex. It gave me the shivers. And I was glad I didn't share the same time and space when this animal reigned it's biotope.

Chazzysaw,
This whole world seems to be one huge complex vibration, construed as variations on themes, stacked upon each other, in layers of increasing complexity. It's like a fuge of Bach, construed on a general theme, with several subthemes, passing by, developing, growing. To me this is big 'link' between music and nature.

[harmonygirl]

Benedict, I absolutely agree. What if we all (everything, not only humans, plants and animals, but gravel, stones, roads, everything!) vibrate at different pitches? I just watched the sunrise and it seems to me that the pitch gets higher the closer the sun gets to the area, then when it does, auditory fireworks! Definitely music.

[chazzysaw]

Benedict my friend I think Ill take my theory to another level.It's something I have been thinking about for a while and discuss with very few people. Unlike some of us I'm honored to be able to shear my thoughts with a group of smart and intelligent people on this sight. I have learned allot from you people. Sometimes I would surf the TOE sight and try to read as many thoughts and ideas ( there are many) as I can. Some I comprehend others I don't. I must admit this sight has started me thinking about my own TOE theory. If I am wrong I'm sure you guys will be quick to tell me. But if I"M right I need help in explaining. I believe 2 heads is better than 1,3 bet 2,4 bet3 you get it. No one person can think of everything. The subject of this thread is what began to reinforce my thoughts on this TOE.