THE 5th ELEMENT

[neutralino]

Hey Prof:
You may be referring to 'ether' (aether) as the (quasi mysterious) conductor of all transient energy (and whatever other signals) through space...

Best regards,
- RP

How would one design an experiment to detect such a thing? All the ether theories I've heard of, that are accepted today (that is, not using the classical ether, but something much different) give results that are identical to relativity. Thus, what is the point in it?

Here's a link to Einstein's later thoughts on the ether

[Profpat]

You're right Neutralino I just discovered that the classical sense meant NOT material.

Thanks everyone for your input, and goodnight Gracie,

Pat

[bsaucer]

The fifth "element" is "spacetime", or the universe. As for matter, there have been several rare "states" observed, such as superfluid, Bose-Einstein, superconductor, etc.

The five Platonic solids have been associated with the "elements":

Tetrahedron = fire.
Cube = earth.
Octahedron = air.
Icosahedron = water.
Dodecahedron = universe.

If the universe (3-space) were actually shaped like a dodecahedron, it would have to be non-Euclidean (either elliptic or hyperbolic, assuming 3-space is isotropic)

[Mikal]

Well maybe I can't equate aether to ether. A little Wiki research yielded this;

According to ancient and medieval science, Aether (Greek αἰθήρ, aithēr[1]), also spelled ether, is the material that fills the region of the universe above the terrestrial sphere. Aristotle included it as a fifth element distinct from the other four, Earth, Water, Air, and Fire. Plato and Aristotle referred to Aether as "Idea", and in this sense, it may be regarded as that which exists outside the material world (i.e. thought processes, mathematical algorithms, etc.). Aether was also called quintessence (from quinta essentia, "fifth element"). Quintessence was also thought to be heavenly, i.e. not of the material world (matter). Quintessence was also said to have the power of life. Its Platonic solid was the dodecahedron.

I guess they ( Plato and Aristotle ) considered aether as idea NOT material.

Back to our 5th state of matter. I'm not sure what Einstein was referring to as field? But could an electromagnetic field be considered matter? And if so would it be a 5th state?

Best to all,

Pat

Prof....you say the 5th element was called quintessence and it was also said to have "the power of Life".....C. G. Jung stated that as the ego is being developed so to is the ego's libido...Jung stated the libido was the psychic life-force...the essence of desire and psychological energy...this is non-physical energy existing outside the material world, definitely would be universal in nature and probably moreso a property of the heart field...


Mikal

[Profpat]

Hi bsaucer:

Welcome to the Toequest Site and thank you for your input.

I believe the 5th element to be the ether. The CBR that permeates the universe, EMR if you will. Massless so therefore not matter, but energy.

Best,

Pat

[austintorn@aol.com]

HI Prof,

Maybe the energy of the ether is all there is, the one and only—and when strings of it spin and twirl as like a ball of yarn it compresses into what we call matter.

I knew you would like strings.

The ether energy is so small that it acts like a liquid and so when two opposite going currents of it pass each other, then a perpetual rotation begins that is halted by the ether compression limit, although it takes VERY LONG to make a neutron since the energy string is so tiny.

The proton arises from the fluid energy still whirling about the solid neutron core that can take no more.

[Yeltsin]

The ancient Greeks had 5 fundamental elements;

--------Greek elements--------States of matter----

---------AIR-----------------------GAS--------------

---------WATER-------------------LIQUID-----------

---------EARTH--------------------SOLID-----------

---------FIRE----------------------PLASMA----------

---------AETHER------------------ETHER???????????

My question: IS ETHER OUR 5th STATE OF MATTER?

Maybe NO2.

All that stuff on the righthand side is composed of atoms, even the plasma.

On the denser side is the stuff neutron stars are made of. Matter so condensed that the electrons have merged with nuclear protons leaving a core that is one nucleus.

There is also the Bose-Einstein condensate, Fermi condensate, and some hypothetical quark matter.

Einstein's aether was empty space--space empty of radiation or ponderable matter. Empty space is more than nothing.

[austintorn@aol.com]

Some now speak of aether or just ether as the fundamental substance(s), space being of low density (or maybe none in some places) of it and forms like 'particles' being of a very high density of it. As for what it is, who knows, for I need better glasses to see it.

[Profpat]

Maybe NO2.

All that stuff on the righthand side is composed of atoms, even the plasma.

On the denser side is the stuff neutron stars are made of. Matter so condensed that the electrons have merged with nuclear protons leaving a core that is one nucleus.

There is also the Bose-Einstein condensate, Fermi condensate, and some hypothetical quark matter.

Einstein's aether was empty space--space empty of radiation or ponderable matter. Empty space is more than nothing.

Hi Yeltsin;

i believe Einstein changed his mind regarding empty space and later believed in the ether.

The only empty space is the Void which is NOTHING.

Our space is filled with CBR from the big bang. Radiation is not atoms or mass ( matter ) but rather radiating energy. This part of space is known. Speculation also has strings, quantum foam, etc, being perhaps part of the ether.

[Yeltsin]

Hi Yeltsin;

i believe Einstein changed his mind regarding empty space and later believed in the ether.

The only empty space is the Void which is NOTHING.

Our space is filled with CBR from the big bang. Radiation is not atoms or mass ( matter ) but rather radiating energy. This part of space is known. Speculation also has strings, quantum foam, etc, being perhaps part of the ether.

Hi, Profpat.

There's some history here to be noted. You might ask, if electromagnetic radiation is a wave, what is it waving in? So the hypothetical aether was born to account for what electromagnetic waves were waving around. This was at the time of Michelson-Morley and Lorentz, and those guys. Itr was a prevailing notion around the time Einstein was developing special relativity.

Questions arosed about the properties of the aether. The aether had a velocity in space of its own. It had some elastic properties so light could wave in it. Did it pass though the Earth, pass around it, or get dragged around by it?

The speed of light was relative to this aether.

So, anyway, this was not Einstein's aether. Because in relativity the speed of light is independent of inertial frame, rather than in added to the velocity of this aether.

Einstein's idea of an aether was completely different. He asks, what does a region of spacetime devoid of all matter and radiation have?

It has properties. After all, it has dimensionality for one. Spacetime has a geometry. 'Nothing' does not have a geometry. Empty spacetime has a proportionality constant called c, the speed of light. It has curvature. One could go on and on.

So there where two different aethers. One is defunct; one was Einstein's.