[analog]

Originally Posted by dipayankar We would be cheating ourselves if we say that we all understand what ToE means, if we did, we would have had a ToE by now.

hi Dip,

You might be right, but that's not how I see it. Understanding the meaning of a ToE and understanding the functions of a ToE are two different things, at least in my mind. When I admit to the possibility (meaning) of a ToE, I am merely acknowledgeing that IMHO all things can be encompased/found relative under one unifying paradigm; including any percieved forces of nature along with life, consciousness, etc. Knowing how to do this (function), and what paradigm to use is the hard part, and is the quest for many.

Admitting to a GUT is similar, because it is merely acknowledgeing that all of the percieved forces of nature can be found relative, and can be explained under one unifying paradigm. This is much easier than finding a ToE, and it should lend itself as the foundation of a ToE.

regards,

Tim

[austintorn@aol.com]

The TOE would not only explain how the original stuff was formed or always was, but the why of its nature to easily (over 18 billion years) lead to us or if it was just luck and also why we can operate as we do.

A small example of the latter might be that the ability of memories of the past and the imaginations of the future arise from movement of stuff from here to there or places such and this allows the notion/reality of time past and future as to what the stuff does physically and also conceptually in our minds.

So it would tell all, beginnings plus interactions all the way up to us.

[analog]

Hey Austin,

You've been a busy man today. I'm still trying to get caught up on the rest of your posts from earlier. LOL

I feel that our understanding would be limited at best to merely understanding (by way of a ToE) the state of the fundamental substance at anytime in the past, and possibly acknowledgeing where it's present motions are taking us; thus allowing predictions to what state it might be in, in the future. I feel that all we could ever possibly understand is the functions of the FS (how it moves). Why it moves, and where it came from, we may never know, and the most logical answer would be; it obviously does, and it's always been. These are the absolutes which I feel are the boundaries of our understanding.

Being as we and our thoughts are part of this motion and are fully embedded within the FS, is it even possible for us to acknowledge the origins of what allows us to be, as our thoughts are defined somehow by the same motions that govern all? Can one thing ultimately know where it came from, how it came to be, or why it is and does what it does; at the most fundamental level? How could we acknowledge a state of anything before acknowledgement was ever manifested? The current state of the FS is obviously at a state of learning itself; thus you and I are having this conversation. Just as our knowledge develops after birth, whereby we can't honestly say where we were before that event, and all we know is after; the birth of mankind (consciousness) within the FS would also be subject to a similar effect.

Even the ToE would be subject to the predictions it made on how the FS functions/moves at all observable resolutions; not just those resolutions that give rise to the percieved forces of modern physics, as those predictions could be observed. Any theories we assume about the origins of the FS, even if correct, could never be proven and would forever remain theories, IMHO.

Just my thoughts,

Tim

[austintorn@aol.com]

Thanks Anolog,

If the ToE lets us make predictions, that is, if it was a deterministic universe that could tell future formings—I mean more in general than actual dates and times, we predict, maybe, and find out. Problem is our math can't even do a three-body problem, much less more, although some computers try to predict the weather and nuclear stuff, but still hard to know what will be.

If ToE shows random events, then they maybe still have a direction of prediction at some higher level, else nobody knows what will be, too, but because of a different reason.

Original causes, constraints or whatever come and gone and so never to be known would not be much to live one's life by.

At least ToE could tell some things now.

[Profpat]

Actually Austin probability theory is very good at making predictions, just look at Vegas. That town was built on probability theory.



This makes a very nice probabilty pattern for craps.

[Profpat]

Even Chaos has a very predictable pretty pattern.

[austintorn@aol.com]

True, Prof, probability theory in Vegas says the house wins overall after all is accounted for. Big celebrations of winning make that seem more likely.

Maybe Church of Profpat could become a quickie wedding place there. You could even extend membership beyond yourself to take all denominations, especially tens, twenties, and hundred-dollar bills.

They also need accountants in Vegas and have many ladies there for your research on heels and toes.

I guess craps has the best odds.

[Profpat]

I'm planning on taking Linda to Vegas over Christmas, getting her drunk and taking her to one of those wedding chapels. Now what are my odds?

On the macro Newtonian relativistic level things appear to be deterministic.
But on the micro quanta level things are free to go here or there, but in the long run, the craps pattern hold, very deterministically. Though you may roll eight 7's in a roll.

Beautiful, isn't it?

[austintorn@aol.com]

The odds are good that you will get married, Prof, but then she may sober up and get even from your taking advantage of her odd behavior from drinking. She might even become your boss and so then you will have to work under her.

If you drink, too, Prof, you might marry an impersonator, even one of Elvis.

[dipayankar]

Hi Tim,

If we understand the meaning of ToE, we can easily decipher the functions of ToE. I guess since we do not understand fully the meaning of ToE, we are not getting to the functions...

Originally Posted by analog hi Dip, You might be right, but that's not how I see it. Understanding the meaning of a ToE and understanding the functions of a ToE are two different things, at least in my mind. When I admit to the possibility (meaning) of a ToE, I am merely acknowledgeing that IMHO all things can be encompased/found relative under one unifying paradigm; including any percieved forces of nature along with life, consciousness, etc. Knowing how to do this (function), and what paradigm to use is the hard part, and is the quest for many. Admitting to a GUT is similar, because it is merely acknowledgeing that all of the percieved forces of nature can be found relative, and can be explained under one unifying paradigm. This is much easier than finding a ToE, and it should lend itself as the foundation of a ToE. regards, Tim