Could an explanation of a Universal Law of everything be a Pandora's box?

[arthur]

Hello, Arthur.
What is your proposition? if you've already posted it, please provide a link. I'm interested in reading it.
__________________




Well Mohan, and any one else who might be interested

The basis of the proposition is remarkably simple, and should not really be contentious. It is that this Sophisticated Civilised society exists only because of Roman Catholicism and Christianity and that Roman Catholicism and Christianity permeates, directly or indirectly, virtually every aspect of this Sophisticated Civilised society to the extent that the "religions" and society are so intertwined as to be inseparable.

The following is a simplified introduction to the proposition.

For something like 1500 years Roman Catholicism's domination, control and influence in the European centres of power, which came out of the unification of the hundreds of squabbling and fighting principalities, maintained an element of order (believe it or not) in Europe.

As time passed the part of the Roman Catholicism's doctrine, which included the history of the Jews, namely the Ten Commandments became, over time, incorporated into the Laws of most of the countries of Europe.


Partly due to England's break from Rome and in Germany, Martin Luther's Protestantism and with the gradual sophistication of societies, the basics of the Ten Commandments eventually became an integral element in defining the justice of the Law's of the "Christianized" countries and eventually became the essence of 'The Laws of the land'/s which eventually became accepted by the proletariat, i.e. you and I, as the norm. It is the laws emanating from Moses' stone tablets via The Un Christian Roman Catholicism as well as the tenets of Christianity and the concepts of Protestantism which has influenced you and I to be what we are. It is having grown up within the security and the protection of the Law, it is the laws which within the bounds of, for example, 'decency', allows you and I freedom to say what we want and to do what we want, it is these laws which has influenced us to expect from our neighbours the kind of decent and polite treatment that they would expect from us.

It is because we developed and grew up in this environment where the laws, the kind of morality, that have given us our concept of right and wrong, of honesty and dishonesty, etc which has allowed us, that is you and me as well as other people to evolve a psychological dependency on an expectation of us having a future, etcetera, etcetera.
I am sure that any reasonably intelligent person could extrapolate for themselves the importance of and the impact that Christianity has had on, directly and indirectly, developing moral or ethical values that they them selves might have. I am also sure that any reasonably intelligent person could not recognise that there is nobody unaffected by the influences of Christianity and its effects.


Now Mohan and any one else, we all, you, me and every person who we know and every person who we have ever known or met and every person who we have ever seen, and, every person who we have ever heard of and every person who lives or has lived in Sophisticated Civilised Society; AND, Everything that you or I and any of these other people have ever done, thought, wanted or owned as well as every judgement and decision that you, I or they have ever made has been, or is, directly or indirectly influenced by or is the product of the tenets of Christianity and the Judaic ten Commandments irrespective whether you, I or they are conscious of the fact. It is because of these tenets that, Sophisticated Civilised Society exists. It is because of them that you, me and anyone else, whether you or I or they are clever or thick, intellectual or not, has the freedom to pander to our expectations of and enjoy the security and protection that the society affords, irrespective of any contribution that any of us has made to it.

We are all products of how we have responded to our perceptions of our environment.

Other than the innate knowledge created and developed during the formation of the brain, (In principle) it is the absorption of the interpreted impulses received via the senses during the seminal period of 'brain' development of all sentient creatures (including you and I) which becomes the BIOS which influences future interpretations of sensory impulses.

So Mohan, and any one else. That is basically what it is all about All straight forward and pretty simple stuff really.

Of course the above is not a complete story, but even so, if it is understood it will almost certainly lead onto the question of Does one really want to know how and why the piles of inert, dead, lifeless inorganic chemicals of which you, they and their kids are constructed can manifest in them selves, which can be recognised and understood by others, the physical responses to the physical sensations that result from electro-chemical activities promoted indirectly by, for example, black on white patterns on a PC screen that represents words like love, faith, belief, pain, distress, hate, etc? and even the words "there is nothing evangelistic in any of this and it has absolutely nothing to do with all of that let us, for the sake of science, destroy peoples faith (or even, for fun) stuff" It is all just physics, it is about the forces that create the electro/chemical reactions in you that promote what you might call feelings, interests, dislikes, fear, revulsion, and the responses to those feelings, panic, stupidity, bigotry, hate, anger and revenge. It includes understanding, not only the electro/chemical responses to the interpretations of sensory stimulation which are all controlled by and adhere to the 'The Universal Law' as everything does, it includes understanding knowledge, consciousness, belief, understanding the bio-mechanics and the bio-economics of growth and development and understanding the function of the brain, after all, we are all only a bunch of atoms/forces in cosmoses of atoms and forces.

All of this is a very small but crucial part of understanding The Universal Law, a preamble to which should be able to be read in the thread "Does it take an intellectual to knock god"?

One should understand however that the understanding of this 'Universal Law' or 'the Theory of Everything' stuff will almost certainly affect how one views ones position as a human being and indeed affect how one views ones own life. For example, take the question of "should Christianity, because it is such an integral part of this sophisticated society, be encouraged in schools"? not theoretically encouraged but encouraged in real life to real live physical poke with a stick and they cry children. Of course if you are a thinker,-you know;-like an intellectual, you would need some reference for the word "should" so what about something like "should for the sake of maintaining a degree of harmony in society" Or even "for the survival of society"

So, Should children be encouraged to learn and understand that all they are are just self programming independent biological machines, and that they have no inherent purpose for existing? Should they be given to understand the "scientific" reality is that any roles or aspirations, that any rhyme or reason for being here will have to be psychologically contrived in the future? Should they be given to understand they are only an assembly of lifeless chemicals which as the result of a few spontaneous electro-chemical reactions develop in them a delusion of 'self'? AND, Should children be encouraged to understand that the way to maintain their delusion of self should be no more that the pursuit of anything, using any expedience what so ever, that might appease the biological stresses which are caused by the spontaneous effects of particular chemicals in them responding to environmental influences thereby promoting activity for self gratification at any expense as the Dawkinites, his acolytes and disciples overtly encourage, and, as a great many other, supposedly intelligent, people who through ignorance or lack of concern inadvertently encourage? Then having so educated the children should we, that is you and I, who have this decency and morality thing as an integral aspect of our being (intellectually??) question, why 'they' act like 'they' do? and then question, how can we control, within the bounds of decency and law, what we have, or, what we have allowed to be created?

This last bit about schools and kids and things is not really 'the' proposition in question, but I do believe that by considering the question of what educated and 'intelligent' adults encourage (our) kids to learn will give more of an opportunity to asses the profundity and the importance of it.

The understanding of the relationship between my proposition and 'The Universal Law' is partially based upon axiomatic statements, for example;

"The knowledge you have will determine your intention"
"Plausibility based upon ignorance is not proof"
And of course the most important "Knowledge is only, nothing more and nothing less than, the result of experience",
and many others.

For anyone who might proffer the supposition that human beings are not important to the world (a simple test of this supposition is to remove all human beings, including themselves, from the supposition and then define the importance of anything)

OK, Mohan and any one else. I will stop and say It is a Pandora's box so think carefully before lifting the lid.


.....arthur....

[SB_UK]

Pandora's box
- so think carefully before lifting the lid.

Pandora's box (unleashing Evil)

==

The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil

~*~

ToE (effectively) closes and not opens Pandora's box
->-by ->-
defining
evil.

Pandora's box was opened approximately 30,000 years ago at the speciation of Homo sapiens subsp. sapiens -
(in the garden of Eden)

... ... where ... ...

- we have been (ever since)
trying
it
to close.

~*~

Rather than bury this idea under words -
will stop there -

- with absolutely no intention of appearing patronising
it really is such a simple idea.

Two seminal descriptions
(from two different cultures)
of
the task set by 'God'
for man to achieve in this our current instantiation

- the {goal of mind, point of man, our reason for living} has been
to overcome
(through reaching a comprehensive understanding of)
evil.

~*~

There really is no such thing as evil and we all know it.
Simply reaction to unfair action.

-> Legal* <- action

* the closest thing to evil -
- devil's advocate indeed.

[Mikal]

Hi Arthur….thank you for coming back! Your perseverance tells me you do not give up easily. In my world that’s honorable.

From what I know the moral of the legend of Pandora’s Box means it is very possible (however undesirable) to open up a course of actions which release into the world the worst chaos.
I do believe you described a small portion of that chaos below and wise to use children in your thoughts there, for they are the future, the upcoming deeds and actions that will become the history of the World.
I suppose that anyone could examine your summations below and form any number of diverse opinions and class it as advancement of knowledge, but from my thoughts I see it as a slow, progressive and intentional “demoralizing” of societies people and families.

It has been easy for me to develop my thoughts on this because I have an ample amount of past years to use for comparison purposes but it would not be so easy for say a child only here 13 years. I don’t think it’s too intelligent of adults who call themselves experts to uncaringly expect the children of today to grow up in chaos…

Just a note in ending…when everything was released from Pandora’s Box the only thing left was hope….

Regards Mikal



“So, Should children be encouraged to learn and understand that all they are are just self programming independent biological machines, and that they have no inherent purpose for existing? Should they be given to understand the "scientific" reality is that any roles or aspirations, that any rhyme or reason for being here will have to be psychologically contrived in the future? Should they be given to understand they are only an assembly of lifeless chemicals which as the result of a few spontaneous electro-chemical reactions develop in them a delusion of 'self'? AND, Should children be encouraged to understand that the way to maintain their delusion of self should be no more that the pursuit of anything, using any expedience what so ever, that might appease the biological stresses which are caused by the spontaneous effects of particular chemicals in them responding to environmental influences thereby promoting activity for self gratification at any expense as the Dawkinites, his acolytes and disciples overtly encourage, and, as a great many other, supposedly intelligent, people who through ignorance or lack of concern inadvertently encourage? Then having so educated the children should we, that is you and I, who have this decency and morality thing as an integral aspect of our being (intellectually??) question, why 'they' act like 'they' do? and then question, how can we control, within the bounds of decency and law, what we have, or, what we have allowed to be created?

Quote by Arthur

[SB_UK]

Just a note in ending…when everything was released from Pandora’s Box the only thing left was hope….

Excellent post.

When we realise the nature of evil -
we'll be left with hope.

'Cept not a blind desperate 'well ... ... this is our last chance' hope
- more certainty in hope
- certainty in faith that things will kinda' get better in the future

certainty in faith and hope in our future
- not certainty (though) in charity
unless
charity ceases to be the weapon of abuse which the rich use to vindicate their own excesses
- to exert power.

How much better are we than they?
Let me count the dollar bills.

[Mohan.C]

I am sure that any reasonably intelligent person could extrapolate for themselves the importance of and the impact that Christianity has had on, directly and indirectly, developing moral or ethical values that they them selves might have. I am also sure that any reasonably intelligent person could not recognise that there is nobody unaffected by the influences of Christianity and its effects.

Hi, Arthur, good to read your proposition. Hmmm, I don't know if I've been influenced by christianity or not. I think, even if I've, its been very little, may be a little through the romantic poets, Coleridge, Byron and Wordsworth. Who all told, believe in what you see around you, and enjoy what you see around you. They didn't teach me the bible, so not much of a influence there.

Religion is small part of humanity Arthur, its something that classifies people, you're a Christian, he is a Muslim, he is a Hindu, a Buddhist. So, basically, religion is a borderline. Tell me, have you ever seen a border larger than the country? I guess not.

Religion should not be given so much importance, may be what it says should be, upto some level.

product of the tenets of Christianity and the Judaic ten Commandments irrespective whether you, I or they are conscious of the fact. It is because of these tenets that, Sophisticated Civilised Society exists. It is because of them that you, me and anyone else, whether you or I or they are clever or thick, intellectual or not, has the freedom to pander to our expectations of and enjoy the security and protection that the society affords, irrespective of any contribution that any of us has made to it.

Arthur, we are what we believe in. We get influenced, yes, but that is only when our beliefs don't bear fruit. So, what do we do? Pluck an already grown fruit, or plant a new tree? many choose the latter, its their choice, nobody has the right to judge another's choice. If we were told to think by god, it was because we could. And if some choose to think about god, again its their choice. If some choose to play god, again its their choice.

We are all products of how we have responded to our perceptions of our environment.

How we respond, yes. As, a kid, you once touch fire, you burn your finger and then learn that you should not touch fire. If you do, you'll only burn yourself again.
But, getting burnt seems like fun

but even so, if it is understood it will almost certainly lead onto the question of Does one really want to know how and why the piles of inert, dead, lifeless inorganic chemicals of which you, they and their kids are constructed can manifest in them selves, which can be recognised and understood by others, the physical responses to the physical sensations that result from electro-chemical activities promoted indirectly by, for example, black on white patterns on a PC screen that represents words like love, faith, belief, pain, distress, hate, etc? and even the words "there is nothing evangelistic in any of this and it has absolutely nothing to do with all of that let us, for the sake of science, destroy peoples faith (or even, for fun) stuff" It is all just physics, it is about the forces that create the electro/chemical reactions in you that promote what you might call feelings, interests, dislikes, fear, revulsion, and the responses to those feelings, panic, stupidity, bigotry, hate, anger and revenge. It includes understanding, not only the electro/chemical responses to the interpretations of sensory stimulation which are all controlled by and adhere to the 'The Universal Law' as everything does, it includes understanding knowledge, consciousness, belief, understanding the bio-mechanics and the bio-economics of growth and development and understanding the function of the brain, after all, we are all only a bunch of atoms/forces in cosmoses of atoms and forces.

Physics, has never told anyone to destroy their faiths.
May be people of religion have professed to not believe in science.
I've yet to see a scientist tell another person "do not believe in god."

One should understand however that the understanding of this 'Universal Law' or 'the Theory of Everything' stuff will almost certainly affect how one views ones position as a human being and indeed affect how one views ones own life. For example, take the question of "should Christianity, because it is such an integral part of this sophisticated society, be encouraged in schools"? not theoretically encouraged but encouraged in real life to real live physical poke with a stick and they cry children. Of course if you are a thinker,-you know;-like an intellectual, you would need some reference for the word "should" so what about something like "should for the sake of maintaining a degree of harmony in society" Or even "for the survival of society"

Don't worry, no religion is going to dissapear. There will be people to encourage it, as long as they get paid for it.

You can choose to ignore the above comment, if you think it was offensive.

Arthur, as I said. Religion is a small part of humanity, minute indeed. Humanity as a whole is something we need to look at. Not these fake walls, protruding from our ego's.

So, Should children be encouraged to learn and understand that all they are are just self programming independent biological machines, and that they have no inherent purpose for existing? Should they be given to understand the "scientific" reality is that any roles or aspirations, that any rhyme or reason for being here will have to be psychologically contrived in the future? Should they be given to understand they are only an assembly of lifeless chemicals which as the result of a few spontaneous electro-chemical reactions develop in them a delusion of 'self'? AND, Should children be encouraged to understand that the way to maintain their delusion of self should be no more that the pursuit of anything, using any expedience what so ever, that might appease the biological stresses which are caused by the spontaneous effects of particular chemicals in them responding to environmental influences thereby promoting activity for self gratification at any expense as the Dawkinites, his acolytes and disciples overtly encourage, and, as a great many other, supposedly intelligent, people who through ignorance or lack of concern inadvertently encourage? Then having so educated the children should we, that is you and I, who have this decency and morality thing as an integral aspect of our being (intellectually??) question, why 'they' act like 'they' do? and then question, how can we control, within the bounds of decency and law, what we have, or, what we have allowed to be created?

Arthur, ok, lets assume that they should not be told they are biological robots or something. Then, what should they be taught, that they all are the children of Adam and Eve who once upon a time used to like apples, and suddenly they decided to make out, have babies? If they ask, why? then probably one will have to tell them, that's because they are human. And if one asks, why they are human? then one will have to say, they were created by god. End of story. Not enough to fill our text books, ah?
Yeah, you are right. We should not tell children they are biological robots. But, neither should we tell the children, they will be burned in hell, if they speak a lie, knowing full well, that we are lying everyday to them.

The understanding of the relationship between my proposition and 'The Universal Law' is partially based upon axiomatic statements, for example;

To my understanding, none of them seemed axiomatic, they all seemed like suppositions.

"The knowledge you have will determine your intention"

Carries no meaning, whatsoever. Einstein invented the A-bomb. So did Einstein actually intend to blow up a country.

"Plausibility based upon ignorance is not proof"

May be a reason why we need not believe in god.

"Knowledge is only, nothing more and nothing less than, the result of experience"

No comments. That is too deep for me to ponder

For anyone who might proffer the supposition that human beings are not important to the world

Nobody has told Human Beings are not important. They all have said that Human beings are not 'more' important

a simple test of this supposition is to remove all human beings, including themselves, from the supposition and then define the importance of anything

Well, if we can't observe then nothing is important. If we are observing, then we haven't removed ourselves from the supposition. Just, shows how narrow minded we human beings are. We can't see everything, yet we think we are everything, how foolish .

OK, Mohan and any one else. I will stop and say It is a Pandora's box so think carefully before lifting the lid.

There is no box Arthur. The box is only the confines in which we can think. Lift the lid?! I would rather but a bomb in there and blow up the box.

Interesting, talking with you.

Be happy.

We should look at what we are, before we complain what we have become.
Just my opinion.

[Mohan.C]

Hi Arthur….thank you for coming back! Your perseverance tells me you do not give up easily. In my world that’s honorable.

From what I know the moral of the legend of Pandora’s Box means it is very possible (however undesirable) to open up a course of actions which release into the world the worst chaos.
I do believe you described a small portion of that chaos below and wise to use children in your thoughts there, for they are the future, the upcoming deeds and actions that will become the history of the World.
I suppose that anyone could examine your summations below and form any number of diverse opinions and class it as advancement of knowledge, but from my thoughts I see it as a slow, progressive and intentional “demoralizing” of societies people and families.

It has been easy for me to develop my thoughts on this because I have an ample amount of past years to use for comparison purposes but it would not be so easy for say a child only here 13 years. I don’t think it’s too intelligent of adults who call themselves experts to uncaringly expect the children of today to grow up in chaos…

Just a note in ending…when everything was released from Pandora’s Box the only thing left was hope….

Regards Mikal

Hi Mikal,
And what happened to the hope left in Pandora's box. Was it sealed off?
As you may guess, I've no idea, what's pandora's box. But, then from what I've heard here. It seems like a pretty curious container!
Anyway, I blew up the box, I didn't open it. So, I think even hope was released into my world of chaos.

[melanie]

MohanC

Well, if we can't observe then nothing is important. If we are observing, then we haven't removed ourselves from the supposition.
Just, shows how narrow minded we human beings are.

We can't see everything, yet we think we are everything, how foolish .

WE don't exist except as an idea / thought -- no thoughts of you = no you ----example: in deep dreamless sleep / or under anesthesia.
when we come back on line, we identify with our-self as a thought / idea, this mistaken habitual conditioned identification with an assumed identity
- is just a movement HELD within the mind/consciousness
- an already known idea / thought

'We' relatively speaking do not SEE

'We' are the SEEN--which means everything

- who is it that sees? -CONSCIOUSNESS SEES

-we are IN consciousness / consciousness is not in us

-Reality is NOTHING arising as EVERYTHING - One Without a Second

Just as water takes the exact shape of it's container, there is no room in here for two.

Solid objects do not quite fit.......it has to be fluid.

[Mikal]

Hi Mikal,
And what happened to the hope left in Pandora's box. Was it sealed off?
As you may guess, I've no idea, what's pandora's box. But, then from what I've heard here. It seems like a pretty curious container!
Anyway, I blew up the box, I didn't open it. So, I think even hope was released into my world of chaos.

Well Hope escaped too! Its the footsteps that follow what we call evil...however what is evil? Its just the misfortune or the failure or the inability to have a sympathetic relationship to all Humanities' struggles...

Regards Mikal

[Graybeard]

The basis of the proposition is remarkably simple, and should not really be contentious. It is that this Sophisticated Civilised society exists only because of Roman Catholicism and Christianity and that Roman Catholicism and Christianity permeates, directly or indirectly, virtually every aspect of this Sophisticated Civilised society to the extent that the "religions" and society are so intertwined as to be inseparable.

From the WIKI

... Kolakowski came to believe that the totalitarian cruelty of Stalinism was not an aberration, but instead the logical end product of Marxism, whose genealogy he examined in his monumental Main Currents of Marxism, his major work published in 1976-1978, which won him international renown.

He may have been wrong. China is proving the exception, that just may show that totalitarian cruelty is not the logical end product of Marxism.

... He (Kolakowski ) became increasingly fascinated by the contribution that Christianity makes to Western, and, in particular, modern thought, and sought to defend the role that freedom plays in our pursuit of the transcendent. He asserted that while human fallibility implies that we ought to treat claims to infallibility with scepticism, our pursuit of the higher (such as truth and goodness) is ennobling.

'Sophisticated Civilised society' a term I don't accept on face vale, as it is ill defined and subject to individual beliefs.

But granting its most common usage, then it is clear that christianity has made a contribution to this society. What can be debated is the 'amount' of that contribution, and its influence both beneficial and non-beneficial.

cool bananas ... greg

[arthur]

Hi, Arthur, good to read your proposition. Hmmm, I don't know if I've been influenced by christianity or not. I think, even if I've, its been very little, may be a little through the romantic poets, Coleridge, Byron and Wordsworth. Who all told, believe in what you see around you, and enjoy what you see around you. They didn't teach me the bible, so not much of a influence there.

Religion is small part of humanity Arthur, its something that classifies people, you're a Christian, he is a Muslim, he is a Hindu, a Buddhist. So, basically, religion is a borderline. Tell me, have you ever seen a border larger than the country? I guess not.

Religion should not be given so much importance, may be what it says should be, upto some level.

Arthur, we are what we believe in. We get influenced, yes, but that is only when our beliefs don't bear fruit. So, what do we do? Pluck an already grown fruit, or plant a new tree? many choose the latter, its their choice, nobody has the right to judge another's choice. If we were told to think by god, it was because we could. And if some choose to think about god, again its their choice. If some choose to play god, again its their choice.

How we respond, yes. As, a kid, you once touch fire, you burn your finger and then learn that you should not touch fire. If you do, you'll only burn yourself again.
But, getting burnt seems like fun


Physics, has never told anyone to destroy their faiths.
May be people of religion have professed to not believe in science.
I've yet to see a scientist tell another person "do not believe in god."


Don't worry, no religion is going to dissapear. There will be people to encourage it, as long as they get paid for it.

You can choose to ignore the above comment, if you think it was offensive.

Arthur, as I said. Religion is a small part of humanity, minute indeed. Humanity as a whole is something we need to look at. Not these fake walls, protruding from our ego's.

Arthur, ok, lets assume that they should not be told they are biological robots or something. Then, what should they be taught, that they all are the children of Adam and Eve who once upon a time used to like apples, and suddenly they decided to make out, have babies? If they ask, why? then probably one will have to tell them, that's because they are human. And if one asks, why they are human? then one will have to say, they were created by god. End of story. Not enough to fill our text books, ah?
Yeah, you are right. We should not tell children they are biological robots. But, neither should we tell the children, they will be burned in hell, if they speak a lie, knowing full well, that we are lying everyday to them.



Interesting, talking with you.

Be happy.

We should look at what we are, before we complain what we have become.
Just my opinion.

[SIZE="4"]Hello Mohan thank you for you sensible thought provoking reply. By my interpretation of your; "Interesting talking with you. Be happy." ending to your post I assume, rightly or wrongly that you have no interest in continuing this discourse, if this is the case, you will I am sure understand that my answers of your 'points' and questions will in fact be directed at any one else who is interested and who thinks similarly to you.
……………………………….......


……………………………….......................
So, Mohan (maybe) and anyone else. As I have said this is about physics and it is logical. To gain an understanding it needs to be viewed with objectivity, the results of subjective assessments that change and fluctuate with the flow of mood altering hormones have no place, the occasional spontaneous bout of awareness or of consciousness of what you are feeling about religion will only interfere with objectivity and therefore will also not help. I do believe Mohan that you have misinterpreted the point of the proposition for it is nothing to do with what you "think" you believe about God and religion, in fact, unless you do believe, it has nothing to do with God,

It is to do with the sources of the influences responsible for programming your brain. It is to do with the institutional role and the influences and effects that the particular human beings, that make up the churches, have had in the evolution of the sophisticated society in which you live and which you are dependent upon. It is to do with the subsequent influences that you have adopted and which you have become dependent upon in your attempt to maintain an element harmony or such within your environment. It is to do with the role that they have played in developing and in you being able to recognise morality, ethic, honesty, values, etc, and it is to do with the freedoms you have and how you are able to live because of, in the past and today, so many other people followed and still follow and try to abide by the Christian tenets and accept as you do the rapidly diminishing justice that the law of the land provides,

cont