Counting to Infinity

[SteveA]

giving us our two sets of Earthly poles:

magnetic and geographic

I like that analogy, SB. Nicely put

[TinyTree]

I would think that counting to infinity would take an infinite amount of time, unless you could reduce the amount of time you spent counting each step.

Then, it would be the sum of a series. If you could make this into a converging series, you could count to infinity in a finite time.

Note also, if your counting could skip values in a "super exponential" way, you might be able to reach infinity in a reasonable time.

For example, if you doubled the value you counted every time, you would count much faster than if you counted by ones. Doubling your value every time is not going to reach you infinity particularly faster than in an infinite time, but perhaps an enterprising soul could come up with a way to count to infinity in a similar manner in a finite time.

[austintorn@aol.com]

I don't think that anything real is infinite.

There isn't infinite energy or we be packed in like sardines.

Reality (space) ends where influences ends.

'Forever back' up to now doesn't make sense since then an eternity would have already completed.

[SteveA]

I would think that counting to infinity would take an infinite amount of time, unless you could reduce the amount of time you spent counting each step.

Then, it would be the sum of a series. If you could make this into a converging series, you could count to infinity in a finite time.

Note also, if your counting could skip values in a "super exponential" way, you might be able to reach infinity in a reasonable time.

For example, if you doubled the value you counted every time, you would count much faster than if you counted by ones. Doubling your value every time is not going to reach you infinity particularly faster than in an infinite time, but perhaps an enterprising soul could come up with a way to count to infinity in a similar manner in a finite time.

Yes, there are lots of nice forms that can be generated "along the way"

The main thing I wanted to emphasize is that there may actually be something infinite in existence and it turns out that there is not only no matter to describe its properties in mathematical terms, the properties it would be required to possess would be infinitely diverse and effectively incomprehensible.

In mathematics it's often treated similar to a straight line or some recursive procedure, but in physical terms these are impossible for human perceptions - even if we could somehow emulate every possible physical experience, there is simply no manner in which the human body could "describe" more than a finite quantity of these.

Even an infinite memory would not allow for an infinite perception of time with finite perceptions because it would be impossible to locate a memory from within an infinite space with only finite conscious qualities surrounding it.

Notice that the qualities of conscious experience do not appear easily quantizable - i.e. what number is the color red? (Technically we could consider it a wavelength, but people don't really "see" the wavelength and a wavelength isn't precise enough to be infinitely subdivisible in any case).

So the main thing I was trying to emphasize is that if there exists something infinite (and for various reasons time appears to defy having any form of closed/finite description, so time, unless it's simply entirely irrational, should be infinitely long from some perspective - if time is change and represented by contrasts between states, then this infinite time would be required to possess, relative to any form of finite perception/comprehension/experience etc. unbounded complexity and not the typical view of infinite uniformity - you always need more unique detectable properties to allow additional space to be distinguished)

Consider for a second the view of the "Big Bang" - what's really seen? A highly energetic and chaotic space that extends beyond view - this would be a perfectly natural view if human perceptions were only capable of detecting properties that could only represent a finite quantity of space - beyond it would be those things that diverged from local properties - the view that space is just plasma "out there" isn't right - to get "there" you need to change the properties by which you interact with space and that, in effect, moves the currently incoherent forms closer by interacting with them coherently (that's similar to how the ideas of a wormhole work, but it's effectively stretching space toward you).

This is just a related idea, but infinity continually diverges - pick any path you want and it still leads there.

Anyway, it was just one of those "Ah ha!" moments where things clicked.

Counting to infinity would look a lot like all the stuff going on right now (Also, in order to select an initial point from an infinite landscape takes a logarithmic growth of energy/information - this logarithmic growth would likely have specific forms - there are natural processes in which logarithmic and (similarly it's inverse exponential) grow of ratios occurs. An exponential spiral is common in nature and a good candidate as it has an origin and rotates through various dimensions of interaction - could be a birth but represented in properties beyond what we understand.

Anyway, if we took the idea that there truly did exist a real infinity quantity, that's something rather amazing and it would not be flat or simple etc. but grow in diversity beyond comprehension - I think time is like counting to infinity, but we're just seeing finite segments of it and that allows for free will because an origin in the sequence can be selected.

Yes, I'm pushing the envelope of what might be but these ideas fit in so well with so many other thoughts that it just meshes beautifully and it's something that, at least for me, allows me to finally "stop" searching - I couldn't think of anything beyond that - a circle to represent infinity? Not even close! A figure 8, how about a number line? All of these are so NOT infinite - don't get me wrong, they're great symbols and tools to analogize with, but this is so oversimplified that it's like comparing a pebble to a universe - people are looking at the pebble and missing what's around it and the things unknown beyond that - if someone stops for a second and really considers all the possibilities, they're incredible and a true infinity would fill all those and not even figuratively break a sweat

So imagine for a second there's this entirely perplexing and complex landscape out there to unknowns (currently) beyond comprehension.

Now out of all that - what would you like to call home? Think hard - if you settle for anything less than what you'd really want, I think time will keep pressuring for change.

To me at least it seems like a great day to look for a nice plot of land and build something beautiful (Seriously, it's already beautiful just realizing that it's "out there" - I don't know how to get there, but there's a pathway from A to B and that's actually really all I wanted to know - I'm havfing plenty of fun enjoying the scenary along the way and the bumps in the road just help me figure out a little better precisely what that destination is and there's enough scenary along the way to keep things entertaining for as long as anyone could want and to me, that's the Theory of Everthing that Matters ... the stuff that doesn't matter is worth paying attention to ... oops, I mixed up the threads )

[SteveA]

I don't think that anything real is infinite.

Is time real?

If time is real, but it's finite, can you explain how time begins or ends?

There isn't infinite energy or we be packed in like sardines.

Infinities are relative - what if a single infinity was split into two sets - would one appear infinite relative to the other?

Reality (space) ends where influences ends.

Yes, I agree - if there existed an infinite thing, but one only had an ability to interact with a finite quantity of it, then that finite interaction would only define a finite space - but then again, where does that ability to alter that finite space arise from? It doesn't spontaineously arise from within the finite constraints.

'Forever back' up to now doesn't make sense since then an eternity would have already completed.

Correct, it similarly takes an infinite/unbounded quantity of energy or information to make a selection from an infinite set and so such a selection would arise from the infinite quantity itself but be a subcomponent ("little" infinities are still infinite and there's an infinite tree of these forms as well). You only need one largest infinity.

[labelwench]

Once or twice, just as I was falling asleep, there came over me a sense of total peace, and awareness that I was somewhere else, and that this was a very special revelation.

There was nothing recognizable, and, in fact, I did not seem to have any tangible form, yet I was 'there', wherever that was, and there was no sense of alarm or need to be able to find one's way back, or any reason for concern whatever.

It 'felt like' everywhere and everywhen, without any points of reference, and was 'in it' and 'a part of it'.

Fascinating and intriguing, yet before I could focus on exploring this wonderful thing any further......I must have fallen asleep, lol.

Words fail me in attempting to describe such a brief glimpse at something unknown, and the more I try to probe it, the more elusive it becomes, so I don't think about it often, and will just accept it, should it offer itself to me again...

Everywhere and everywhen, no reference points or forms, yet it seemed a wonderful place to be....

Regards,

Labelwench

[austintorn@aol.com]

Perhaps the part of the brain that tells where you end and everything else begins went silent, as in meditation.

Then likewise for most of your 'self'.

Bliss.

[SteveA]

Once or twice, just as I was falling asleep, there came over me a sense of total peace, and awareness that I was somewhere else, and that this was a very special revelation.

There was nothing recognizable, and, in fact, I did not seem to have any tangible form, yet I was 'there', wherever that was, and there was no sense of alarm or need to be able to find one's way back, or any reason for concern whatever.

It 'felt like' everywhere and everywhen, without any points of reference, and was 'in it' and 'a part of it'.

Fascinating and intriguing, yet before I could focus on exploring this wonderful thing any further......I must have fallen asleep, lol.

Words fail me in attempting to describe such a brief glimpse at something unknown, and the more I try to probe it, the more elusive it becomes, so I don't think about it often, and will just accept it, should it offer itself to me again...

Everywhere and everywhen, no reference points or forms, yet it seemed a wonderful place to be....

Regards,

Labelwench

Maybe it was so many things that it seemed no where/when specific but all of them

[PoPpAScience]

Hi Steve.

Infinity is imaginable, if one chooses to think out of the norm. One must first realize that Infinity is the only scenario that allows for something to be in something. If you go to the end of any thing, I.E. Universe, then you have to have something to hold the Universe in, and etc... .

There is only one structure that can be Infinite, and that is a structure that has no boundaries, but is pliable enough to be attenuated. Now this takes a lot of contemplation to see this, because we are only cognitive of form with boundaries. If one really tries they can imagine a Substance that is Infinity attenuatable, and thus Infinity compressible. If Infinity is only one thing, then there is no separation.

If one contemplate enough about something within something long enough you come to the realization that "Infinity for Eternity" is the only solution. Eternity is what gives Infinity existence.

Before Motion was introduced to "Infinity for Eternity", there was just one thing everywhere, no boundaries. Motion creating form gave imaginary boundaries to Infinity.

Time is, because there is an Eternity. Space is, because there is Infinity. The Universe is, because there is Motion. There only is, "Infinity in Motion for Eternity"

[PoPpAScience]

Everywhere and everywhen, no reference points or forms, yet it seemed a wonderful place to be....

You had a glimpse of "Infinity for Eternity" without Motion. Add the Motion of Thought and you see only our present reality. Only the greatest of meditators can experience "Infinity for Eternity" for any longer that an instant.

Now that you had a taste of it, you can at least imagine it now.