Counting to Infinity

[labelwench]

A finite point of reference, with no observable motion, yet teeming with activity, despite appearances....textures of a Balsam Poplar.

[SteveA]

Hi Steve.

Infinity is imaginable, if one chooses to think out of the norm. One must first realize that Infinity is the only scenario that allows for something to be in something. If you go to the end of any thing, I.E. Universe, then you have to have something to hold the Universe in, and etc... .

Yes, it was something that hit me recently that there could exist an infinite determinism - any physical system we build is constrained and only contains the equivalent of finite times/energies/information - they're seen as closed loops from a "wider" perspective.

Such infinite nesting appears impossible, but there still can exist a "largest" thing and the reason why effectively arises from being finite - no matter how far out the imagination goes, there's still a limit and something more complex - time appears logically unconstrainable, yet reality shows that time is still "running", yet there's no way to in a deterministic matter "close it off" and encapsulate it.

But because we're finite beings, with finite thoughts in a finite universe, the wildest things of imagination are still finite concepts and can have things larger that allow time to exist within those structures.

For all intents and purposes, there does exist something infinite and it can't be described in a real form as anything infinitely repetitive, it must contain unique elements to distinguish between things and hold them stable in time and this is a recurring theme throughout humanity - whereever we search, there is more detail added and always another step beyond that can twist around and change something that may have even previously appeared entirely stable - the only "solid" evidence that such a thing exists is just time itself and it has no limits that we could conceive of within it

The beautiful part to me though, is that there actually does exist "an end", not in terms of a point at which some objective progression stops, but because having only a finite view, there can exist in reality anything imagineable (and concepts beyond) but all of these are still finite and contain boundaries despite there appearing to be none, which is actually quite fine because from the perspective of a purpose to it all, that purpose is whatever you define it to be, and there is a centerpoint to that concept in time and there is the equivalent of an infinitely diverse space that can be filled with it. It's just the most beautiful and delicate dance and it's so simple in some respects but time works perfectly well if finite constraints to the logic are dropped and a recognition that there does exist "something" beyond, but anything beyond the limits of that finite (but still immense) logic that defines the body and mind doesn't really matter - by looking through a little window, you can fill it completely with whatever you want and that "little window" is already an infinite space, but the words don't do it justice because every point is a unique concept/experience/sense/belief/object etc.

There is only one structure that can be Infinite, and that is a structure that has no boundaries, but is pliable enough to be attenuated.

Yes, it can't itself be compressed or contained, but it's an infinite tree of growth (that's seen as a linear pathway of experience).

By not "seeing it all", you can see everything else ... perfectly fine by me, and it might even be that figuratively after seeing everything else, then you can see what it all is

Now this takes a lot of contemplation to see this, because we are only cognitive of form with boundaries. If one really tries they can imagine a Substance that is Infinity attenuatable, and thus Infinity compressible. If Infinity is only one thing, then there is no separation.

Yes, it depends on how you look at it - none of our descriptions are seeing all of it - though it's easy to compress everything into a point or nothing, but that's just by ignoring, overlooking or rejecting the diversity it contains. It could be similar to a blind man seeing light as one thing - but sight breaks this superposition and separates it into more than one thing.

I don't actually think "The Infinity" can be scaled in a multiplicative sense to anything finite like 1 or 0 and this paradox exists in mathematics and is often overlooked as well. A way to look at this is that though 0+0+0+0+... would normally be considered to be equal to 0, these zeroes and pluses were never truly identical otherwise they never could have been counted and a unique property exists to each (they're at different locations on the screen relative to its boundary, which are relative and contained by your perceptions etc.)

So in order to add an infinite number of zeroes together, you need an infinite quantity of properties to describe where they all are and an infinite space to store how many have been counted and infinite perceptual precision to distinguish between all these and the infinitesimal "sum" of an idealized multiplicative 0 is continually approached, it just because every one of these is embeded within a structure that grows beyond comprehension.

If one contemplate enough about something within something long enough you come to the realization that "Infinity for Eternity" is the only solution. Eternity is what gives Infinity existence.

I don't think I can disagree with that and yes, time appears to be the "proof"

[SteveA]

A finite point of reference, with no observable motion, yet teeming with activity, despite appearances....textures of a Balsam Poplar.

Yes, and if you look at the ocean from space, it looks as just a flat blue shade - until you dive in! Then it changes completely

[labelwench]

Yes, and if you look at the ocean from space, it looks as just a flat blue shade - until you dive in! Then it changes completely
Originally posted by SteveA

Why, Steve, some of your answers are just 'other worldly'. Surely you are not suggesting that I am a 'space case'?

I have already taken full credit for that claim, lol......

[SteveA]

Why, Steve, some of your answers are just 'other worldly'. Surely you are not suggesting that I am a 'space case'?

I have already taken full credit for that claim, lol......

I'm just "high on life" right now - I spent a lot of time struggling to make the ends meet - experiences in reality and the logic I love using to build things, but I was trying to stretch that chain of logic so thin that it was becoming just too many leaps of faith to accept - there was just no way the two connected, no matter how far out you went and I began to seriously wonder that there's no way it could be this complex - it seemed like I was just adding all that complexity to it (though I love the complexity too ... that's beautiful also and that's "in there" too ).

And then it really hit me that what if my own beliefs were flawed and if the equivalent of some program could exist that could even determine beliefs and thoughts - in that case the entire thing collapses to something fundamentally simple from which all the rest is "grown" and there's effectively nothing impossible that we could describe or experience and infinity is something so completely different from a straight line - that's like the letter A in an infinite alphabet that surrounds all of experience.

That's where infinity stops for me because I'm only human and can't see anything further than that - and that's perfectly fine!

(I've been listening to Pachelbel's Canon and right now it's like a stately march toward infinity, but this version has a lot of improvisations in it, and it's like these delicate little details added to it - I've got the CD version of this, which is done better, but here's a YouTube video of the guy playing a rougher version of it - I like that way he enjoys making music - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etHOFmFF3FA though I wish you could hear the CD version)

Some people might call him "way out there" also, but I think he's found a great "personal center" to it and everything else falls in place nicely after that

Enjoy! (The mind visits distant places long before the body ever catches up and if the mind never gets there, the body's not going to do it by itself )

[labelwench]

I'm just "high on life" right now

Absolutely certain that it's not the caffeine?

That's where infinity stops for me because I'm only human and can't see anything further than that - and that's perfectly fine!

Originally posted by SteveA

Steve, this is infinity we are talking about. I'm relatively certain there is plenty to go around. Why stop?

And I'm thinking that you have an excellent sense of humour and will enjoy the following song as much as I did when I tripped over it today....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZHgH...eature=related

[austintorn@aol.com]

The infinite sequence never completes, for that is the denotation of the word.

E/M waves travel on out towards 'forever', if they don't come back, but they never get there.

Perhaps another word should be employed other than one that mean 'it can never happen'.

[SteveA]

Absolutely certain that it's not the caffeine?


Originally posted by SteveA

Steve, this is infinity we are talking about. I'm relatively certain there is plenty to go around. Why stop?

And I'm thinking that you have an excellent sense of humour and will enjoy the following song as much as I did when I tripped over it today....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZHgH...eature=related

LMAO, that is sooo funny!

I don't go to coffee houses too much (except for a little treat , but I can totally relate to the song.

[SteveA]

If someone wants a better idea of what counting to infinity looks like, and I'm (almost) entirely serious:

Animusic - Pipe Dream 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9ySR...eature=related

There's a way to do this with one ball. (Try to figure that out)

In fact it can collide with itself ... and to make it "worse" it can also have remained stationary.

(Hint: The ball exists within an infinite dimensional space - and we could even fit that space into a real number between 0 and 1! )

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Hi Steve, just thought I'd let you know you are not the only one to have seriously contemplated infinity. Back in the `80's, when I came to the realization math lacked the quantities I required to express my ideas about economics, I decided to build my own system of math, from the ground up. First, I had to get beyond the finite universe, as I realized finity had our math trapped in the pseudo-conscious mode of interpretation, but how was I going to achieve this feat?

I realized imagination was unlimited and if you will, infinite in capacity, so I thought and thought for over a year, just about how to exceed the light cone of present understanding, then stumbled across a great Cosmology book by a one Mr. Hardison. He gave me the tools I needed to exceed the light cone, or just our math of how far light has traveled since the supposed BB, of then estimated between 15 or 30b. yrs. I sat down with pencil and paper and did the calculations by hand for both scenarios, and bingo, I came up with two awfully large sets of numbers, and upon checking my figures, found them to be correct. So now, I saw the path, so I just kept going beyond all the existing stars and galaxies, but where was I, and what was I in?

I looked around, and at the time thought I saw nothing. But upon another 30 yrs. study, I've come to realize finity had to have a fundamental substance to exist. So now, looking back at my first realization, I still can see that distant finity from an imaginary perspective of infinity, but I'm now in an infinite Dirac sea of photonic substance, of maybe all photons, or at the least, their bosonic relatives, etc.

I do think it's a very interesting perspective, because we can look back objectively, from subjective imagination, at finity from infinity, imaginatively, with a distant enough perspective, and possibly enable us enough conceptual imaginative room to see finity in a clearer light, 'iffa ya knowa whatta I meen'.

So, no-one's wacky for this vision, as it may be very useful, as I was able long ago to build a virtual universal cyclotron in my imagination, to run every possible model of possible universes in. The imaginative theory aspects of it are extremely huge...rrr

Have you considered time/motion/substance inversity...?
The chiralling conflexivity/inversion/eversion of finity in infinity: Time/FS/Motion / | \ Time/FS/Motion
Finity: X/X=1+IEE / | \ Infinity=Imagination??? Lotta space/time/FS/motion beyond finity, in my imagination...
Most amazing annimation I've ever seen: Link Thanks, Steve...

Yes, there are lots of nice forms that can be generated "along the way"

Even an infinite memory would not allow for an infinite perception of time with finite perceptions because it would be impossible to locate a memory from within an infinite space with only finite conscious qualities surrounding it.

So the main thing I was trying to emphasize is that if there exists something infinite (and for various reasons time appears to defy having any form of closed/finite description, so time, unless it's simply entirely irrational, should be infinitely long from some perspective - if time is change and represented by contrasts between states, then this infinite time would be required to possess, relative to any form of finite perception/comprehension/experience etc. unbounded complexity and not the typical view of infinite uniformity - you always need more unique detectable properties to allow additional space to be distinguished)

This is just a related idea, but infinity continually diverges - pick any path you want and it still leads there.

Anyway, if we took the idea that there truly did exist a real infinity quantity, that's something rather amazing and it would not be flat or simple etc. but grow in diversity beyond comprehension - I think time is like counting to infinity, but we're just seeing finite segments of it and that allows for free will because an origin in the sequence can be selected.

To me at least it seems like a great day to look for a nice plot of land and build something beautiful (Seriously, it's already beautiful just realizing that it's "out there" - I don't know how to get there, but there's a pathway from A to B and that's actually really all I wanted to know - I'm havfing plenty of fun enjoying the scenary along the way and the bumps in the road just help me figure out a little better precisely what that destination is and there's enough scenary along the way to keep things entertaining for as long as anyone could want and to me, that's the Theory of Everthing that Matters ... the stuff that doesn't matter is worth paying attention to ... oops, I mixed up the threads )