Philosophysics of a fundamental substance

[PoPpAScience]

Hi Tim.

My opinion does not mean much in this forum, except for my votex buddy, Vincent Wee-Foo that is, but I'll give it anyway. I consider what you wrote in Posts# 176 and 177 as One of the most "Must Read" posts in this forum. You must take those two posts and place them in a thread of their own, if you do not, I will. If I do, I will call the thread, "Tim gets it!". I think you could come up with a better thread starter name.

I have always said to myself and my wife, that if only I could get Dave, Jim, and Vincent to converse they would come up with a Theory of Everything. I would have to say that you would be more suited for Vincent, because your Mind is still alive with the curiosity and imagination needed to advance the Thought processes.

I already see in my Minds Eye what you expressed in those posts, mainly because of your interactions with Dave, and also the Theories of Jim and Vincent. But I do not have anywhere near the abilities to express in writing, or the deeper technical knowledge, to do what you have done in those posts. So, I say Well done, and thanks for writing what you see in your Minds Eye.

Get R Done,
Allen.

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Hi Tim, and great job wrapping it all together the way you did. I think that by respecting c as our absolute fundamental of all measurement, logic and truth__We have a far better method of grounding all our ideas into the soundness that's required to take these models to completion. Wiki has more recently updated their science page on light, which I think everyone on ToeQuest should read, so much of the exaggerated ideas and theories beyond true c light speed may be avoided, except in the absolutely abstract theoretical, which may simply give us virtual standpoints, to get better glimpses of the whole, as we've already mentioned...

Over the last 50+ years, most all of science and philosophy has been searching for a 'sound logic quantifier', what I would more state as 'an absolute logic and math quantifier'. Sceince has always accepted it as being measurement, but what standard of measurement has often been in dispute. Philosophy has concentrated on the logic quantifier through linguistic and logical predicate and propositional logics, such as first, second and higher order predecate calculuses and logics of, but my position has always been, it must be a mathematical measurement logic, that steers the ship of knowledge and intelligence. Since the `60's, we've had just such an accurate measurement of light to the meter correspondence, that it's actually our only absolute measurement of all the sciences. Imo, the 'only absolute quantifier logic and math' is our most fundamental measurement of light, yet light itself is an absolute measurement of all geo and bio-nature__from the smallest protozoa to the largest aspects of the Universe, and must be respected so, at all levels of science and physics, even as to relativity. Yes, relativity's measurement frames of 'observer' reference are a relative measure, as Einstein clearly showed, but light herself is always absolute__and this is the major point most scientists haven't yet realized__observer and c reality are two independent, yet linked, concepts of reality, but must be viewed as to their absolute respective states, within the c motion fields and structures... You can't measure any relative dimensions, unless you measure them from the absolute of c... c herself, is absolutely c in vacuum, until she runs into higher densities of herself interferring and condensing, or is accelerating from the higher densities, to lower densities and finally back into the em-vacuum__the lowest density of em-matter-waves and fields__Yet this still must be understood as Va = Vu + Vr__Always absolute total c... I can't stress this observer/actuality distinction enough...

I feel our reasoning here, should have profound effects on the natural sciences, in all areas of thought, because we finally have an indisputable absolutely grounded quantifier of measurement, and all of philosophical logic, which must be used in all fields, to interpret any results found, in any fields. Imo, no longer are we going to be bound to the almost impossible task of trying to prove the unprovable of Aristotle's predecessors' and followers' long historical attempts at completing the highly complex predicate logics and calculuses of linguistics__We can now ground all reasoning and logic in the absolute soundness of c measurements, of all things, through the truly measurable historical frequencies of all the historical truths, by fully measurable comparrisons and correspondence logics, fully and clearly related to absolute c measurement__the absolute frequencies of the historical facts and truths are possible... Imo, 'absolute c quantifier logic' allows us to clearly see through 'time/distance/place logic...'

Now, some may not realize how important it is to have a sound 'quantifier logic'__but the true problem creating all the arguments here at TQ, and in all the many fields of physics and other sceinces, and even the soft sciences, has been none other than 'No Sound Quantifier Logic...'

I just last Saturday attended our yearly philosophical conference here in Camden Maine, and one of our speakers was Ted Cohen, a 70 year old professional logician, mathematician and comedian philosopher from the Chicago School. He had the audience in stitches laughing about philosophy__Now that's almost unheard of, especially when over half the audience were professional philosophers... Anyway, I went outside at noon and had a personal talk with him about logic and math, since I'd recognized his talents in these areas. Both of us agreed the problem of modernity's interpretations of knowledge and truth was centered on the 'Logic Quantifier Problem...' At the time he, I or no-one in the world had solved this historically age-old problem, as to an absolute grounding between personal intelligence and science__by personal intelligence, I mean our deep epistemic reality of moral emotions, on out through esthetics, concepts, ethics, logics and maths, or sound and grounded measurements. So, after the meeting I set to work researching this area I'd already researched, but with a new eye of attention focused on the problem between linguistic and mathematical correspondence__and 'quantifier logic'__to see if it weren't possible to soundly link and ground them in my most recent ideas that have developed by relating back and forth with you, Tim... No more was I in the middle of this new research project when you posted #176 and #177, which just happened to tie in with what I was working on...

All these ideas tie in with several posts of mine months ago, as per #3217, #3218, and #3220, and some other more recent of my posts. I'm still in the preliminary stages of putting this all together, as to the entire mathematical links to what we've talked about in this thread, but I will be posting much more about it later Tim. Thanks for the great theoretical efforts, and especially for bringing those older ideas of yours forward, that I had mentioned to you earlier...

We'll get there,
Somewhere,
Lloyd

P.s.
The math may be turning out to be much simpler than I'd earlier thought__also...


Free Will or No Free Will...???

[analog]

Hi Pop,

Thanks for the recognition. My current thoughts are addressing the mechanics of massive structures and their dynamic interactions with unstructured matter within which they reside. I made the implication that less massive bodies must have a virtual mass value equal to the more massive bodies which they orbit which would theoretically be found by way of their rotation/spin upon their axis along with their velocity through their orbit. Simply imlying such is still no different than just giving forces a name such as gravity. We must go further and define the mechanics whereby the missing virtual mass values may be founded in the interactions of the unstructured field upon the structured massive object IMHO.

Angular momentum allows the field to transfer motion to a spatially autonomous volume rather than the volume transfering motion. Thus, as we imagine the largest mass of the black hole at the center of a galaxy falling through the unstructured field in the momentum direction of the universal wave, the disturbance area perpendicular to such motion sets up the light speed interactions of the field flowing around the massive object to fill the void of displacement relative to magnetism along with the resulting interaction of the angular momentum itself causing a perpendicular disturbance which imparts motion on the lesser massive bodies caught within this orbital area of disturbance within the unstructured field. This would be a mechanism to impart rotation and orbital velocity which would account for the missing virtual mass values of the less massive bodies or systems of bodies i.e. stars and solar systems, which have the same effect of the lesser orbiting the greater within their system. Mass values are directly relative to surface area and such whereby determining the interactions of the fields abilities to impart rotation and orbital velocity upon a body per it's mass.

It's simply mechanics to account for transference of motion rather than merely implying them. At the moment due to my time requirements of work, I would rather keep these concepts in one thread for a clear following of these concepts. Too much of these mechanics are scattered through the forum and I prefer a one stop resource, but I do see a future need to focus on less broad aspects within additional threads to address specific aspects, and may do so in the future. Feel free to use any of my ideas in your own thread as you see fit as I would try to participate as much as possible.

Thanks,

Tim

p.s. I hear ya loud and clear Lloyd and will get back with a full response in a bit, but I do see the problems you're explaining and am glad to hear that you're still forwarding our efforts.

[analog]

We can relate much of what I'm implying to the work of Kepler and Newton in their implications of the force of gravity being proportional to the mass values of bodies and inversely proportional to the square of their distance with their connective orbital line sweeping out the same area per unit of time which accounts for changes in velocity relative to orbital distance/radius. These concepts can actually be applied to the interactions of the motions of the unstructured EM field as they proportionally interact per mass value of a body. The feild has a motion magnitude which falls with the square of the distance from the greater massive body Vu to Vr whereby a lesser massive body Vu+Vr placed at any radius would have an established rate of rotation and orbit, thus as its orbital elipse brings it closer or further it is actually bringing the structured body through greater and lesser areas of spatial density thus also motion density of disturbance.

The same can be applied at the atomic scale with electrons, protons, etc. IMO whereby we find a super symmetry to relate all scales of these interactions from the micro to the macro. It would seem that the current maths of gravity whether classical or Relativity are actually a measure and calculation of the field strength of unstructured matter and its relationship to the mass value of structured matter reducible to absolute conserved c mechanics.

Just some additional food for thought.

Later,

Tim

[Lloyd Gillespie]

We can relate much of what I'm implying to the work of Kepler and Newton in their implications of the force of gravity being proportional to the mass values of bodies and inversely proportional to the square of their distance with their connective orbital line sweeping out the same area per unit of time which accounts for changes in velocity relative to orbital distance/radius. These concepts can actually be applied to the interactions of the motions of the unstructured EM field as they proportionally interact per mass value of a body. The feild has a motion magnitude which falls with the square of the distance from the greater massive body Vu to Vr whereby a lesser massive body Vu+Vr placed at any radius would have an established rate of rotation and orbit, thus as its orbital elipse brings it closer or further it is actually bringing the structured body through greater and lesser areas of spatial density thus also motion density of disturbance.

The same can be applied at the atomic scale with electrons, protons, etc. IMO whereby we find a super symmetry to relate all scales of these interactions from the micro to the macro. It would seem that the current maths of gravity whether classical or Relativity are actually a measure and calculation of the field strength of unstructured matter and its relationship to the mass value of structured matter reducible to absolute conserved c mechanics.

Just some additional food for thought.

Later,

Tim

So, what we are looking at, if this is true, are the facts that Mass is a by-product of the FS-EM-Field in Matter/Motion's collisional state, where Gravity is a by-product of the Masses of the Structured Bodies produced, which in turn produces the EM-Forces, Weak and Strong Nuclear Forces, and returns spent Matter/Energy to the FS-EM-Field__A completely recursive perpetual hydrodynamic motion system__producing its own mass, gravity, em-dynamics plus the weak and strong nuclear forces__over vast time/distance scales. It's just difficult for observers to see this simplicity, due to the fact of having to comprehend the absolute eternal necessity of a c FS-EM-Field, and the reality of the triadicity of Absolute Fundamental Substance necessity, instead of their old 'Oneness Myths...' Sure, it's one Universe, but formed of many, many parts and pieces, all inter-connected in the EM-Continuum Field, which also is absolutely required to have and eternally maintain, the minimal(yet initially total) mass required to form the masses of all structured bodies... No mass can exist, unless it always existed in the FS-EM-Field__in its least dense state... So imo, to complete the model, it still requires the mass values of the Higgs' Mechanism, which only the LHC can possibly confirm or deny...

Our logic and present maths can know and prove most of what we've discovered, but the final true masses of the FS-EM-Field can only be 'logically and mathematically' postulated by the total absolute c logic and math, of our entire models... By processing all the mass and gravity figures possible for us to presently do, we still only arrive at a fully functioning mathematical and logical model, yet no fully supporting scientific experiment of the initial mass values, to make it all fly... We can't measure the Universe__We can only measure the micro-scales of the Universe, to achieve our experimental proofs__and so far, we have no way to find the hyper-fine micro-masses of this, yet hidden, micro-Universe... So, we seem to be in the same position as the Std. Model physicists, unless you have some further ideas of how to find the hyper-fine masses...

We can know our models show the masses are required to be there__But, we have no experimental proof__yet possible... The Std. Model, since Peter Higgs, also shows these micro-fine masses are necessary to complete that model...

Tim, we can reverse engineer the logics and maths, but I see no way to reverse engineer an experiment yet__Though there just may be a way to do just that...?

Any ideas...???
Lloyd

P.s.
I can logically and sensibly state it but can't prove it__FS, even in its least dense state, must carry a minimal hyper-fine mass, to produce any larger structures of mass. The best reason I have for stating this is the fact that photons make impressions on film, and our brains form percepts and concepts from photons... How can anything be real, without carrying a minimal hyper-fine structured mass...??? Imo, it can't...!!!

New idea: A light measuring instrument may not measure mass at c, when measuring photons at c, but the electron measures a mass increase, when a photon(or quanta of) enters it... Maybe all the proof needed...???

[analog]

Hi Lloyd,

Let me just throw some stuff out here and see if it stirs any thoughts. I've been questioning lately the relationship of the frequency of the photon to the quantity of fundamental substance that it consists of in the sense of an exact quantity/quanta of FS relating to an exact frequency during propagation, or can the same quantity/quanta exhibit any frequency of the EM spectrum? As suggested before, I see the photon as a temporally autonomous system. These systems exhibit Va values of Vu to Vr to Vu etc. of their entire quantity of internal substance through time. The most fundamental unit of structured matter on the other hand would theoretically be a spatially autonomous quantity of fundamental substance with a ratio value of near static Va=Vu+Vr for a period of time. In this senario, the distribution of absolute motion isn't cyclical through time, but rather a balance of random motion Vr to uniform motion Vu within a spatial domain isolated from the universal Vr EM field by way of angular momentum. As being such, it would have an interaction with the EM field which allowed the transverse wave motions of the unstructured matter field to impart uniform motion upon the structure. The structured autonomous matter would have a rest mass value relative to its internal Vu+Vr ratio of the quantity of substance within it's domain as all uniform motion would have an inertial aspect which established its Vu value relative to all other spatially autonomous structured matter domains.

The interactions of the EM field would have a Higgs mechanism aspect, by way of adding virtual mass to the structure in the form of imposed uniform motion, but would not be required for the structure to have an independent mass value by way of it's internal volume. Mass is merely a value of uniform motion. The field would merely establish the intricate balance of motion between massive objects. We would measure the fields motion density simply by observing the relationship of orbiting massive bodies within it. This gives proof of it's existence in a sense. I would assume the mass value of any autonomous structure to displace a quantity of substance similar to Archimedes' principle whereby having a spatial/motion density surrounding the volume relative to the internal motion state within the spatially autonomous volume which constituted it's mass. I see this as a critical aspect to quantify the relationship of massive objects acting at a distance upon each other relative to their mass values. The motions of the greater structure through the field have a relative/proportional area of motion density, while adversely this intrinsic motion density adds a virtual mass value to the lesser orbiting structure. We must find these interactions within the field else we're back to "spooky actions at a distance" type senario or merely implied mechanics with no established mechanism, IMO. Simply put, the transverse wave motions of the field interact with the outer domain of angular momentum of structured matter whereby having perhaps a reflective aspect of these wave motions back out into the field causing higher density chaotic destructive interference, but also may exhibit a sequencing of transverse motions in rythm with the angular momentum which could impart rotation on a lesser massive structure perhaps. There merely has to be dynamics of moving massive bodies within unstructured fields which we must account for as an aspect of some currently observed phenomena.

Now, to address the allowable mass value of the universal system. As Va approaches absolute linear Vu as a temporally autonomous volume falls/propagates increasing to near the speed of light, it's internal mass value nears infinity per Dave, as mass is merely a ratio by which we relate the distribution of motion within spatially autonomous systems. It's one of motions measuring tapes and is relative to a temporal volumes velocity relative to c within it's fall. At c, their would be no internal autonomous systems as the entire volume would converge to one system. The quantity of substance however is equivalent to the quantity of motion, whereby determining the degree to which mass can be internally divisible by way of various autonomous structures. Their's only so much motion and substance to go around as both are equally conserved. Thus, if we give the quantity of mass of a temporal system a value of one at falling c, any lesser velocity would have a relative combined mass Vu value of all internal autonomous structures summing to less than one with the remaining missing mass being conserved in the sum of all Vr transverse motions, or so I theorize.

Their's always potential 'energy' within a Vr field to produce kenetic mass, (with structured mass then becoming the potential for kenetic 'energy' by way of any randomization of the internal uniform motion of an autonomous system) because Vr is the missing mass value when at any velocity below c, because random motions can be converted to uniform motions which translates as an increase in mass within a system. The transverse waves merely have to have a type of interactive wave symmetry or uniform vibration if confined within the micro structural domains or become constructive enough to produce angular momentum if part of the universal or photonic systems Vr field, but this ability does decrease with a decrease in spatial density, yet the field can still contribute it's mass back to structured matter through the condensation process in the form of quantities of substance, or the absorption of a quantum of substance, as with that of the photon.

Photons constitute a missing quantity of substance from the Vu and Vr value of the universal system as they are always in limbo between Vu at falling c and Vr at lesser than c with an average linear propagation of c per unit of absolute time. Thus they do have a mass value relative to it and can thus contribute so or deduct so.

Due to being their own temporal system, they only have their quantity of substance to work with, thus their internal mass value resets at one relative to the degree at which the volume can internally be rationed into Vu+Vr systems, but relative to the universal system they're merely a miniscule fraction of it's mass value.

The quantity of substance which makes up the photon is related to its propagation aspects of frequency, wavelength and amplitude, thus the degree at which it's internal mass value can be divided is proportional to such to allow for a consistent cycle of those parameters. So, I would relate the question of the quantity of substance within the universal system which can be put forth to establishing structured matter and division of mass internally to it's recursive relationship of it's own frequency, wavelength and amplitude values. How would we study the photon and determine it's internal division of motion ratios and mass per it's required parameters of frequency, wavelength and amplitude. Can this be determined internally within a temporally autonomous system, whereby we might arrive at a frequency, wavelength, amplitude value for the universal system whereby if related to a specific quantity of substance could perhaps yeild a mass distribution ratio Vu+Vr of the whole throughout phases of the cycle.

In short, I would have to imply that the answer would have to come from the study and understanding of the micro (photonic system) if this were to be possible. We would just have to figure out a way to translate from the scaled down external light cone view, to the scaled up internal light cone view.

I don't know if this helps, but I just cleared my mind and went through my thoughts as I typed.

Later,

Tim

P.S. I'm too tired to proofread this properly tonight so good luck with it. Lol. I correct later if need be.

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Hi Tim, excellent post__as you've triggered my mind to some of my earliest thoughts about the entire system as a single unit of mass, in all its varied states of Va = Vu + Vr... Here's the most important sentence in your post, to me:

Thus, if we give the quantity of mass of a temporal system a value of one at falling c, any lesser velocity would have a relative combined mass Vu value of all internal autonomous structures summing to less than one with the remaining missing mass being conserved in the sum of all Vr transverse motions, or so I theorize.

Here's a few of my statements from years ago, which shows we're still on the same page:

The Arithmetic of Everything...
"True infinity is a finite one." me
"The supreme ultimate, divided and multiplyed by quantum motion, equals the quantum state." me (in my first copyrighted book in 1991)(can be interpreted as Va = Vu n Vr)

A Sensible Infinity...
"The law of requirement - The only source of matter/energy(mass) at the universal abstract origin, to make conservation of energy/matter(mass) law true, was infinite space matter/energy(mass), to produce first structured matter, therefore infinite space matter/energy(mass) is required!" (as it's all there was) me

The Zero Theory of First Cause...(Abstract theorizations)
"The mechanical necessity of universal self-circuitry - Absolute zero temperature, in and of its infinite space origin self-black-hole, created the first superconductive field wave force[vibration, amplitude, resonance, harmonics], and quantum radiation of - before visible finite matter, came dark infinite space cloud matter." me

So, it seems in the final analysis that the total system mechanics gives us the mass figures we are presently searching for__at least in the gereral sense of modal logic's 'necessity of measurement...'

This means we are using the entire Universe as our experimental laboratory__Will it fly...??? Well, it already is__'A Necessary Is...!!!'

A final thought__With enough math, we can deduce the hyper-fine structure mass of even a single photon, as per related to an 'ultimate one', as long as we use rational limit maths, which all the best science does__presently__as most all science is required to do, as true infinity is still not fully mathematizable, even though smooth infinitesimal calculus works, for many cases, but not all... As far as I can see though, all's required is simple deductive math, to figure the infinitesimal mass of a single photon__by basing the math on the single sentence above, which you jarred my mind into realizing...

Regards,
Lloyd

[analog]

All acknowledged structured matter seperable from the universal Vr EM field are a quantity of substance, thus they have a mass value that when summed up throughout the whole establish the Vu value of the Va=Vu+Vr relationship of the whole. The remaining or missing mass value from the Va=Vu linear c fall state of the whole is conserved by way of the remaining Vr value of the whole. Atomic particles and structures have a more temporally static Vu mass value which sums to the more stable mass value of the whole at any point throughout it's cycle. The photonic system is always in limbo between an additional mass value to the whole and an additional unstructured Vr value to the whole or precise ratio of both depending upon the stage of it's cycle relative to it's linear propagation in respect to c. It contributes to both values throughout it's cycle as it goes from Vu to Vr. The universal system is the upper recursive process of these same mechanics as it can be seen as a contribution of Vu or Vr or some ratio of both to a higher level cosmic EM field depending upon it's stage of the cycle.

Just some thoughts.

[analog]

Hi Lloyd,

I replied while you posted that so just saw it. Seems we're moving in the right direction my friend. Excellent....will read your post and reply more thoroughly in a bit.

Later,

Tim

[Lloyd Gillespie]

The 9 Chiral Degrees of Freedom of Pure Wave Motions...

RRR, LLL, RRR, RRR, RRR, RRL, LLR, RLL, LLL
RRR, LLL, LLL, LRR,. LLR, LLL, LLL, RLL, LRR

All from fundamental right and left wave motions meeting, as per first row to second row...
These are the 9 categorial combinations of wave mechanics necessary motions...
Charge and mass increases are by-products of these fundamental motions...

If you notice above, the highest degree of fundamental wave interference is created by the third set, and all others are either symmetries, as are the first two of highest symmetries, and the others are of lesser symmetries to the highest asymmetry of the third set__Therefore, the highest chance of wave interference forming into particle structure is the third, where the first two sets are the least capable of forming particle structure, due to their symmetries able to pass through each other with zero resistance... Of course, in the real Universe of crowded matter wave motions, they'd all be happening at once, with the highest probability of chiral wave knot tying being accomplished by set #3__RRR/LLL__The highest chirally opposed wave interference set... All this must also be considered under the lowest possible nearest zero k state changing temperature__at decay limit of super-symmetric hydrodynamics...

Mass Becomes EM-Field At c Over Time...
Infinitesimal EM-Field Mass Becomes Cycloid Mass At Vu Over Time...
Mass Is Total Content of Spin, Plus Angular Cycloid Velocity__Va = Vr " Vu...

"All truth in the Universe, must reproduce itself, through the bio-brain, by way of triple correspondence logic__c arithmetic measurement, observation, facts..."

Food for thought,
Lloyd

P.s.
Note: If you notice the above sets, are/is 666, 3 times... Weirdness is everywhere...