Philosophysics of a fundamental substance

[G_burnett]

Hi Graham ... I'm not quite sure where you read in my post that I promote a designer ?? If so, I have been remiss in my explanation .... In my view chaos reigned ... order arose from a random fluctuation

cool bananas .... greg

lol no did not mean to imply that sorry.... ahh a random condense maybe ... and chaos arose ... to flex and flux an try to stay in a state to no more success then it had in the invert ... it will condense again. IMHO ... kind regards graham

[analog]

.
Am I on track in this thread, or do you not wish to go down this road ?? Its all cool and no problems.

Hi Greg,

As I suggested earlier, geometric symmetry in matter/motion model would be equivalent to motion symmetry as it would take symmetric uniform motions to establish geometrically symmetrical uniform structures of any sort at any resolution. I'm not sure if that helps, but yes you are on track in this thread because you're working within a matter/motion paradigm, which is one of the reasons for the thread, to show examples of how such few fundamental constituents can be arranged to function in such varying ways. Perhaps, you could just give us an overall delivery as I and Lloyd have done so we can kick all three around a bit. I know your beggining from past conversations ie Va=Vr and I think I know your implied trigger of spontaneous symmetry breaking, but you should go as in depth as possible in the mechanics so I can get a good idea of your logic.

later,

Tim

[analog]

I follow part of the above, but when you use the last word, point, I shy away from such descriptions, because it reminds me too much of the already failed present point models. I rather make clearer distinctions of the three phase changing states__Va, Vu and Vr...

I gave a better description of one degree of freedom motion in terms of wave mechanics rather than points in one of my last couple of posts.

I just think we've really got to thoroughly define the absolute fundamentals of motion better, first___They must be grounded in our known, and knowable, sciences...

I think we should get back to that as I've went back through our earlier posts now that I have a better understanding of your views and terminology.

No, not really__because my model does have linear motion as its decay limit point is most all Vu linear motion, with the smaller ratio of Vr, and is closed by the hydrodynamic linear motion of contraction mechanics within the, infinite if possible__field__or Void as Dave's posit... But, one must realize Dave posited two models without clarifying between them__"Void"__and "All Is Matter Within A Void"... Now maybe he separates these two models somehow, but they be conflated to my understanding of his model/models...??? This is the very reason I figured the Universe forward, to escape the Deep Quantum-Well, Hole of too many Contradictions...

One problem I think we are having is our use of linear motion. Are you applying it to the outward expansion of the light cone as seen within your diagram? Off hand I would say that your model establishes a volume with only two ranges of motion of the whole at the outer limits of the light cone ie expansion/outward of the 3d EM field and contraction/inward upon the arrival of the Hawking Decay years, as is the case with most current models of expanding "space". All internal volumes would have a range of lateral linear motion along with the expansion and contraction dynamics. The entire volume as I am referring to it has three ranges of motion forward, expansion/outward and contraction/inward along with all internal volumes. This is how I imply its propagation through a 4d matrix which is very confusing otherwise. Two ranges of motion is expanding and contracting, while three are moving forward, expanding and contracting.

The field must always have em-interaction to maintain Va = Vu + Vr, although the Vr can be very small, while the Vu goes to very great, within the total group Va... And the Universe we witness today, would be a larger volume of Vr to Vu, although Vu would still be the greater volume of and within Va...

I'm not sure if we see this the same either, as due to the conservation laws, I would suggest the degree of expansion directly proportional to the ratio of Vu to Vr, thus as the universal volume ages and expands the Vu value falls with a proportional increase in Vr, as the spatial aether is released from a more condensed structured state allowing the volume to move outward with the outer edges of the lightcone being at the greatest degree of randomization, thus also maintaining the least amount of spatial density. Areas of spatial Aether surrounding massive objects get increasingly more dense through the recondensing to a structured state due to the uniform motions of structured matter. I would imply that if the Vu value was greater within the entire volume, the volume would be condensing rather than expanding. I could be misunderstanding something very easily at this level of conversation.

Could you give me an overall of the dynamics of Vu/Vr within your views so I can align my thoughts to yours, which would help greatly?

later,

Tim

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Are you describing a heat death here ?

No Greg, a decay of Vr to a lesser state of Vr in the Vu, within the Va. Some confusion enters as the state we're in now is actually an increase of Vr decay, but later, many of trillions of years later in the Vu + Vr decay cycle__Both of which must be understood to be a dynamic ratio of finite structured Vu + Vr are decaying together into higher ratios of Va as Vu first decreases and Vr increases__But later in the decay cycle, Vu will increase over Vr, as so much of structured Vu will have already decayed, so's not to be emitting as much Vr__Thus the nearing re-cycle limit will be mostly Va + Vu(more linear motion over spin__less wave interferrence) with far less Vr... This is always a Universal Triadic Ratio-Logic System of Va = Vu + Vr, and never does it go to zero, even upon recycle, and formation into the new, and would be the same ratios in inverse order of a new condensation, triggered by hydrodynamic near-super-symmetry at recycle limit....

In plain words, all finite structure Vu +Vr__Black-holes, Stars, Galaxies, Moons, Rocks, etc., all first radiate away structure__Vr rads increasing__as Vu + Vr Structure decreases into lesser radiated away structures, in the ratio of less Vu to Vr__But, later even the protons, electrons, neutrons and positrons(these lesser Vu + Vr structures), etc., will radiate their structure away to even less Vr(mainly photonic field Vu waves), but this late stage will increase drastically in Vu, as a near-symmetry process will begin to exist, heading the Vu + Vr toward a near super-symmetry recycle of all Va(meaning total motion). It's the late Va + Vu quantum state change of far less Vr, that forces the hydrodynamic state into overpowering the expansion state, by the near super-symmetry of Va + Vu and least action Vr(principle of least action applies here), that builds the hydrodynamic quantum state of contraction and re-condensation__thus increasing the Vr collision states within the Vu most linear state of Va... Basically, the decay state is a two state dynamic ratio, of first increasig Vr, then decreasing the Vr of the Va = Vu + Vr__So, the Vr is the biggest variable in the entire triadic system, in both directions of the recycle... Conservation is actually between all three systems of motion, and not just two, as has been thought... It's a Dynamic Triadic Universal Ratio-Logic System, imo... I'm still working on some of this, as I just realized my triadic Pythagorean graphs can actually display the entire dynamics__I'll work them up today, and post them later. I just hadn't realized earlier that Dave's Triadic Logic System of Va = Vu + Vr was so close to my Triadic Logic System, and both are actually an 'Absolute Triadic Universal Ratio-Logic System', that seems to be capable of 'possibly' superseding 'Relative Mechanics and Maths', in total scope and use, logically and mathematically, as 'Absolute Triadic Ratio-Logics' are a more powerful mathematics system, based in the Absoluteness of Motion, FS and Ratio-Maths...

This is all new to me, since last night, so there'll probable be a few bugs to work out, but I'll work up some of it today__The 'Absolute Universal Triadic Ratio-Logic', that is__But it seems to all be fitting together... I even developed 'An Absolute Inverse Universal Triadic Ratio-Logic' to cover gravity and mass__from all these minds coming together__We'll see if it has true validity, later...

Ok ... good, very good

Ques: you see the end of the light cone ...or end of the Universe as Va = Vu + (tiny bit of Vr)

How do you see the start ... or the FS prior to the events that lead to the Universe ??

The opposite of the decay, as described above by both my and Dave's Vr building Vu Condensation Mechanics__Of course, Va and Vu are massively involved there also__but that's all been pretty much gone over a hundred times by Dave, Tim and others... Btw Greg, even your persistence and insistence on Symmetry, fits into the Triadic Equations:

Va = Super-Symmetry
Vu = Symmetry
Vr = Asymmetry

Of course, they're actually a dynamically changing states of positions and states, integration and de-integration ratios, but they may assist descriptions, of the 'Total Universal Mechanics...' So, they are of a general description use, which can make the model simpler for the un-initiated to possibly understand easier__Some of that fell into place just last night, also...

greg

Later...

Tim, some of the above may have answered some of your query, but I'll answer your post more thoroughly later, after I have the triadic graphed maths worked up...

And thanks Graham, for the vote of confidence...

[G_burnett]

TY Lloyd ...

I am just following the postulations a bit here in the same ponder of what happens in the rad emit and nothing to effect either close enough or in advance but such a state of the all would imply the super symmetry state of the emit has arrived.

Not Alignment but conjunction here perhaps? ... alignment has it own implied projected supposition over personal observation or finding and subjectivity rational missus possible ... not that it would be here but else suffers the term use.

Our retired to butterfly contemplation perhaps as the beat of one can change so much "Guru" in tq here, indeed began the the ponder in me as well but i am not going to post much here as i am looking up from the bottom of the structure right now more into the crystal structure formation in condense ..


a veritable form of trying to stay out of the cycle by matter in lower motion by incident of varied causal of interaction, lower fundamental rad emit,
..with such design to potential forward of accepting wave ...
but to what end other then longevity?

Did any of a model real or imagined a state make it last time ...
is the background radiation that which we have gone through to here?
Hmmm oh well the coffee shop had it run of nice ladies in summer attire this morning and my coffee is cold now ...
i hear a fish calling me too ..

Kind regards, graham

[Lloyd Gillespie]

TY Lloyd ... I am just following the postulations a bit here in the same ponder of what happens in the rad emit and nothing to effect either close enough or in advance but such a state of the all would imply the super symmetry state of the emit has arrived.

Hi Graham, super-symmetry is always within the all of states also, but the super-symmetry I'm speaking of is the less Vr, lower heat state, below the present 2.7 degree k, to where a true and most complete super-symmetry quantum phase state change would take place, to produce the much higher degree state of hydrodynamic condensation recycle__The lowest rad heat state of Vr, as much higher state of Vu super-symmetry in the Va, of course still maintaining some minimal ratio-state of Vr__but which the hydrodynamics can over-come in the total FS-field, possibly minimal frame drag in this state__but, on second thought, the hydrodynamically increasing state would seem to balance this factor out__all new to me here...??? It'll certainly take the help of many questioners and theorizers to complete the intricate mechanics of the recycle dynamics at limit, but I'm using laser symmetry examples, and Lene Hau's Bose-Einstein Condensation experiment's results to frame much of this part of my model...

Did any of a model real or imagined a state make it last time ...[Of course, all of it did, or the Universe would have completely dissapated long ago, over the many recycles throughout eternity__Conservation laws require such symmetry, as all the Universal laws, formulas and principles are triadically symmetrical, not diadically, as is supposed, imo, i.e., the Va = Vu + Vr. This doesn't change the dynamics of the Universal laws, it just gives clearer overall understanding, when one's logic has more room to breath an actual physical mechanics into the system...]
is the background radiation that which we have gone through to here? Kind regards, graham

Yes, absolutely__The higher ratio Vr background rads, still decaying in all directions, til higher states of Vu photonic waves, to Vr waves exist...

The Decay Cycle seems to be in its early stages Yet__Of course no one can be positive of the time/distance point of re-cycle, but if we accept some of the present physics models' maths, as they may be correct__then we're in the extremely early stages compared to a possible 10^137 years cycle, and 10^137 years return re-condensations path, due to being limited to absolute c, Va... Just my close mathematical opinions, so far__At least this is what the Triadic Universal Ratio-Logic is showing me...

Later...

[Graybeard]

yes you are on track in this thread because you're working within a matter/motion paradigm, which is one of the reasons for the thread, to show examples of how such few fundamental constituents can be arranged to function in such varying ways.

Perhaps, you could just give us an overall delivery as I and Lloyd have done so we can kick all three around a bit.

Yes .... no problems .... will give a synopsis of where I am coming from as soon as ..... at work here 05:00 and have to get 2 cameras fitted into Museum before the school holiday brats overrun the place

soon .... greg

[Lloyd Gillespie]

I gave a better description of one degree...

Yes, I caught that__but imo, if the Universe were ever to exist in a 100% one degree of freedom of true linear motion, there'd be no place to measure from except itself__which would leave us figuring all motion from a false position of pure ego__so, this is why I've created my model, which figures from the ground state of the absolutely known earth, galaxies and Universe forward in time__simply allowing a real mechanics, substance and mathematical foundation under all our theorizing. Imo, it's the only way to ground the absolute motion logic of the FS-Field. Such a model allows us a position to stand, while linking all data in a knowable unbreakable path, with a new absolute Universal Triadic Ratio-Logic, fully mathematizable... Even though Dave's is quantumly mathematizable, it offers no clear path to the origins of its mechanics, except pre-suppositional imagination, which far too many will simply dismiss as ego... I'm simply offering a path around the ego-accusations__with a truer grounding path...

I think we should get back to that as I've went back...

This graphic may help seeing the entire dynamics of all of the many participants over the years:

Of course, if you notice Va is represented as a partial of Vu and Vr, but it's to be understood as encompassing the total of Vu + Vr. It's just the way the ratio-maths and logics must be represented mathematically, yet the total dynamics works. If you may be familiar with my other ratio-logic diagrams as, HERE, you can just eliminate the wording from this diagram, replace with above wording, yet see the full Universal dynamics, as this diagram would be as I picture it at recycle limit 10^137 years out...

One problem I think...of linear motion. Are you applying ... outward expansion of the light cone as seen within your diagram?

Both, at all times__Outward and Inward, as linear photons of all frequencies are traveling in every direction at all times... I think you may be using it to mean only the Va dynamic at limit, but I'm referring to both at limit, and throughout the system, at all times... It's just rather confusing, unless we make the more exact state dynamics and times and places we are discussing... That's somewhat why I stated what I did to Greg and Graham, to see if we could get more clarity of the where and whens of the three different motions' states, and also volumes where and when, etc...

Off hand I would say...only two ranges of motion...expanding and contracting.

Yeah Tim, we are seeing the same exact motions, I'm just speaking more generally of the total motion dynamics, and yours is the more in-depths of the total motion dynamics. I agree completely with what you've stated here, and it's somewhat what I referred to in my earlier post today, to Greg, in trying to unite our visions, which seem to be most the same, as I've always agreed with all of Dave's motion dynamics, except the groundings, and absolute velocities of c...

I'm not sure if we see this the same either...conservation laws...spatial density.

Yes, and this is true in the initial stages of the expansion, which will last for trillions of trillions years more__But, there'll come a point in decay time where this ratio reverses the Vu and Vr ratios, as there'll eventually be more Vu waves of pure photonic substance lacking structure to further decay__thus as stated earlier to Greg, less rads is less Vr, or simply less collisional states as the entire volume approaches a recycle point of necessity by a most super-symmetric state producing the hydrodynamic increases on the entire volume of the expanding light cone field... As I stated to Greg, it's a two stage expansion and decay process, of first more rads, then less__thus the ratio changes as more heat dis-appears out of the system, to it's super-cold and possibly non-viscous fluidic state changes, at near zero k__just as the Lene Hau experiments show, plus the CERN, etc., high temp, high velocity laser accelerator physics show...

Areas of spatial Aether...expanding.

In my view, I don't believe any new absolute condensation can take place, except at the nearest absolute zero k primordial state, at the near 10^137 decay state, but I do also see a possibility of maybe areas of the Universe becoming so cold, new condensations could occur__I wouldn't rule it out... But, what we witness of galaxy mechanics condensations/accretions of clouds into possible new star states, is of existing galaxy remnents of already past history condensed states being joined in these new quantum birthing states, from much earlier true field to structured matter states, that condensed in the primordial years. These, I think, would more be accretions, by gravity, of existing particles and space materials__than actual condensations, which only seem to take place in labs, at the near zero k temps, such as Bose-Einstein condensate state changes... I think we have to be careful to realize the two distinct states of condensations and accretions__though the condensations be true__the question really is Where and When are they true__imo...?

I could be misunderstanding...

You're probably not misunderstanding, I'm just not using as technical details as you are. I'm as I stated, using a more general language. Our different methods of speaking will blend after a while, as I see nothing much of what you state I dis-agree with, except the mentioned 'one degree of freedom', though I do accept its abstract importance to quantum theorizing, 'the +c velocities', and possibly the where and when states of possibilities of certain state condensation and rad mechanics... We'll work these out as we progress, as generally our ideas are extremely compatible, as are most of mine with Dave's, even though he didn't see it, at the time...

Could you give me an overall of the dynamics of Vu/Vr...?

Vr would in my opinion be the major contributor of the Vu dynamics of both their mechanics. Just as Dave has described it, Vr is the wave interferrence motions which turns the Vu waves into structured Vu + Vr matter. Vr is also the main dynamics of radiation/decay, as incoming Vu waves dislodge existing structured matter by the collision of Vu waves creating Vr rads, back out into Vu waves. It's just you and Dave developed the volume languages to describe these same processes, I use the standard physics explanations from Einstein Compton Scatterings on. These scatterings originally called quanta, or photo-electric effect by Einstein. The language of photons, and Compton Scatterings didn't exist in his time. The volumes to you may be an easier language to use, but I'm not totally aclimated to the language yet, to speak it, but I do understand what you and Dave are saying with it...

To me, it's the wave interferrences that originally, (speaking abstractly only_as there's really no origin of eternal motion)__that created all the particle condensations from the EM-FS-Field, which became uniform structures of most likely the lighter particles, say 4H, 3H, 2H and 4He, 3He, 2He and possibly even as small as 7He, and several of the other lighter isotopes and plasmas, then the Vr and Vu chance grouped these primordial particles until large enough groups existed for either the, (abstractly initial), hydrodynamic inertia motions, or gravity took over to accrete into larger structured matter, such as Black-holes or first stars. I have no idea which would have been first in order, as none of our brains can tell these conditional states, just the general states of Universal formations, from what we logically see exists today... I don't see the entire universe being formed by wave condensations(only the absolute fundamental quantum mechanics of), and neither does Dave. We both agreed it would be the lighter elements necessary for forming first stars(abstractly again) small bangs,or possibly black-holes and big-bangs... He though more big-bang, from a sizable mass, and I thought small-bangs from sizable, but far less mass than required for a big-bang... Neither one of us know which, for sure... Just those were the only two we tried discussing... We do know that heavier elements have to come from larger stars than ours, so possibly our Earth did not even come from our star__having far too many heavy elements__something to think about...

later,

Tim

Maybe clearer,
Oh well

P.s.
After re-reading, I may have misunderstood your one degree of freedom linear motion...?

[Graybeard]

One problem I think we are having is our use of linear motion. Are you applying it to the outward expansion of the light cone as seen within your diagram?

Both, at all times__Outward and Inward, as linear photons of all frequencies are traveling in every direction at all times... I think you may be using it to mean only the Va dynamic at limit, but I'm referring to both at limit, and throughout the system, at all times...

Ummmmmmmm ..... excuse my dumbness here ....... but when Va = Vu this is describing the Fundamental Substance ..... ??

At this point light cones do not apply ..... or have I missed something ??

greg

[analog]

Hi Lloyd,

The thread seems to be working well, as I know as well as anyone that its when we try to explain our visions that they often become the most clear. There's also the more important dynamic of having other models grounded within the same foundation of necessity but showing a different path walking on the same stones that is the greatest tool to stirring thoughts within minds like ours that run entire systems through our thoughts day in and day out. I always find as many angles as I can to view a model from, which is why you often see me coming up with different metaphors or hypotheses. Intelligence is nothing more than making connections to form networks of firing neurons and such within ones mind which represent the world before us in some reproducible pattern as we are taught early on the outcome of our actions through physical experience, wisdom is building upon that experience to make further connections which allow us to predict outcomes we've yet to experience, and genius is the extent to which we can take such connections to the pinnacle of that which doesn't even have a clear connection grounded in the real world, but is somehow being represented by that which we've touched and predicted to form the mountain from which we stand to finally get a glimpse of it.

I think I fully got your model now Lloyd, and I see conversation becoming much easier as we go. I now know how to further explain my hypothesis in your own words I think as it would have consequences in your model that we might explore and will try to do so later. I'm enjoying our exchanges my friend.

later,

Tim