[G_burnett]

Hi John, Al,

further ponder to share

....the fundamental existence, of any, being. Did I get the commas right? or is it the fundamental existence of any, being ... or ... the fundamental, existence of any being or the fundamental existence of any being ... all would tend to have different query parameters of mind ponder to me so I will try to reply to the one posted and sorry for the confusion i have ... the combined ability of the human mind clump of cellular bio matter is postulated more then all the stars you can see and in AI only a limited minute amount of storage is there with limited sensor array and communication skill/function that logic demands places them a far way from being human comparable to relate with will and or self determination of purpose based on more then need to do by others will preprogrammed even in learning program ability compared to just logical storage access output.

I go with this to be on the platform of quantifying being not qualifying the event of being,
as being in the micro eternal nano to the existence of ... at rest or in motion... from there being starts ... in my own head, has gone that far with us being as qualified, human by evolution, if that makes sense to others or is relative, no idea, i am there anyways and sorry for the bother ~regards graham

[Drifter]

Originally Posted by everymansmedium Hello people: All I am getting is the sound of silence. I thought I was keeping the questions simple. The fundamental attributes of a force are 1(it must be apparent) 2(it must be constant) The fundamental attributes of a being are 1(awareness of self) 2(motivation) Question #1: Who agrees with the fundamental attributes of a being? Request #1: if you do not agree with these attributes of a being could you please inform me of alternatives. Question #2: Do think it reasonable to compare the attributes of a being to the attributes of a law? Question #3: Does it appear to you that these attributes are almost exactly the same? Question # 4,5,6 relative to all of the above, “How” , “Why” This is to ask for your fundamental concept of all of these questions. Really people this is the key issue between science, philosophy, and God as a being. For as a being even the divine force must comply with the laws of being. If there is a God as a being. There must be awareness of self and there must be motivation. This is the very first building block of the bridge between science and the being. Who has the next block? Lets build a bridge. John

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hwyuQbIb0Xs

May I suggest a work by ~Dr. David R. Hawkins, M.D., Ph.D. here John?...

Dr. Hawkings is currently the director of The Institute for Advanced Theoretical Research.

"POWER VS. FORCE"
The Hidden Determinants of Human Behavior

Imagine---what if you had access to a simple yes or no answer to any question you wished to ask?
A demostrably true answer.
Any question. . . Think about it.

Man thinks he lives by virtue of the forces he can control, but in fact, he's govered by power from unrevealed sources, power, over which he has no control.

*"Perhaps one of the most important and significant books I've read in several years."

I would enjoy conversing on this topic here... but I am only partially beginning the book myself... as I read several in conjunction...

Warmest regards,
D.

[But I can offer excerpts?]

[Drifter]

Originally Posted by melanie Dear D I too have experienced this level of awareness, you speak of here, although not through having an OOB like you did. I transcended my physical body, by pure grace and chance alone. It happened suddenly out of the blue, it hit me like a hammer, and threw me into a space so unimaginable, i could not contain the amazement wonder and awe of this discovery. It took my breath away i was totally consumed by '' an eternal awareness'' where my body disappeared and i became my surround. the trees and the clouds and everything outside of my house was me and not separate from me. I can't even begin to put it into words, words could never describe how it felt like that day. It has changed my life profoundly. If this is what they call nirvana, then i know what that is now. I have never reverted back into the old way of being, once one gets a taste of this it never leaves you, there is no returning back to the body. I'm sure you know what i mean drifter. Unless one has experienced this, in no way can it ever be described or understood in words, there is an immense peace of mind and well being that resides within our lives. Crap still occurs and argumentative negative energy often arises, but the difference now is i do not get all fretted up about it, maybe for a while, but no sooner i let off any steam i am able to realign and find equilibrium shortly after any out burst of emotion. And to realize it is still only a part of the frailty of being human the human condition can be a very testing and overwhelming test of mental endurance. It has been very obvious to me and others that i do tend to get embroiled in argumentative semantics with other minds here on this forum. All i ever try to do is so lamely engage in conversations with others. And yet i tend to rub people up the wrong way. So it's best if i just engage in things that i personally understand rather than things that are above my station. But i agree drifter in that you just can't touch this feeling, The one of being nothing but the pure vastness of awareness/space the witness to every-thing arising. And that we are not the body, we mistakenly imagine ourselves to be. Tat Tvam Asi I'm so happy to have crossed paths with you drifter, on this journey through life. love. mel. Ps....every single post i read of yours resonates to my very core, every word and it's context sings to my soul, it is all i understand now. Nothing else makes any sense to me what so ever. Thankyou for all your invaluable links and food for the spirit. Much appreciated, i can't get enough of it.

Thank you Melanie...for your heartfelt reply.
We are of a similar experience and understanding...far beyond mere discriptive words...which can only serve as pointers for those who seek a deeper level of "gnowing"...a truth primary and simple and experiential...and ineffible...

As for the apparent abrasiveness... it must be forsaken as unmanifest cause and manifest effect.

I would suggest to all concerned if I may;

The Golden Book of Resentments
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There is more to life[this=existence] than what meets the eye ...
"I" [as That] was there!

You and I know total emersion and absolution...respectfully...[That is "Love"... Uneqivocal and ineffibly beyond compare, Lover and Beloved united in Oneness, The Ultimate Unity]

Peace, Love and Equanimity to all...
[i][i]Drifter

[Drifter]

Tear off this cloak of shadows.
This web of ignorance.
These shackles of decay.
This living death.
This conscious corpse.
This portable tomb.
This robber in the house.
This enemy that hates all that you love.
This garment that smothers you
and holds you down.
Ignorance floods the land.
Its currents sweep you away.
Don't be borne downstream.
Make use of the backflow.
Seek the haven of liberation.
Anchor there and find a guide
to lead you to the House of Knowledge.
There you will see with the heart,
the brilliant brightness

[Drifter]

~Itzhak Betov's "A Brief Tour of Higher Consciousness": A Cosmic Bookon the Mechanics of Creation, is a humorous and ellucidating read...

Many Great Spirits have walked amoung us...

Accountability is never-ending...

"Reality" is an illusion at best...albeit a persitent one...

Love ya
D.

"Life" really is a Comedy and a Tragedy...I fell as though I am walking around in a play or a dream...here "in person", but not really...

I allude to the "experience of" falling or flying while in deep sleep to those who are dreaming, as to what "awakening Is". [Either experience is rather... Breathtaking... wouldn't you say? how could this...InBreath... be spoken of?... When not even 'a whisper' can escape!?] =-)

Originally Posted by melanie Dear D I too have experienced this level of awareness, you speak of here, although not through having an OOB like you did. I transcended my physical body, by pure grace and chance alone. It happened suddenly out of the blue, it hit me like a hammer, and threw me into a space so unimaginable, i could not contain the amazement wonder and awe of this discovery. It took my breath away i was totally consumed by '' an eternal awareness'' where my body disappeared and i became my surround. the trees and the clouds and everything outside of my house was me and not separate from me. I can't even begin to put it into words, words could never describe how it felt like that day. It has changed my life profoundly. If this is what they call nirvana, then i know what that is now. I have never reverted back into the old way of being, once one gets a taste of this it never leaves you, there is no returning back to the body. I'm sure you know what i mean drifter. Unless one has experienced this, in no way can it ever be described or understood in words, there is an immense peace of mind and well being that resides within our lives. Crap still occurs and argumentative negative energy often arises, but the difference now is i do not get all fretted up about it, maybe for a while, but no sooner i let off any steam i am able to realign and find equilibrium shortly after any out burst of emotion. And to realize it is still only a part of the frailty of being human the human condition can be a very testing and overwhelming test of mental endurance. It has been very obvious to me and others that i do tend to get embroiled in argumentative semantics with other minds here on this forum. All i ever try to do is so lamely engage in conversations with others. And yet i tend to rub people up the wrong way. So it's best if i just engage in things that i personally understand rather than things that are above my station. But i agree drifter in that you just can't touch this feeling, The one of being nothing but the pure vastness of awareness/space the witness to every-thing arising. And that we are not the body, we mistakenly imagine ourselves to be. Tat Tvam Asi I'm so happy to have crossed paths with you drifter, on this journey through life. love. mel. Ps....every single post i read of yours resonates to my very core, every word and it's context sings to my soul, it is all i understand now. Nothing else makes any sense to me what so ever. Thankyou for all your invaluable links and food for the spirit. Much appreciated, i can't get enough of it.

[melanie]

Originally Posted by Drifter ~Itzhak Betov's "A Brief Tour of Higher Consciousness": A Cosmic Bookon the Mechanics of Creation, is a humorous and ellucidating read... Many Great Spirits have walked amoung us... Accountability is never-ending... "Reality" is an illusion at best...albeit a persitent one... Love ya D. I allude to the "experience of" falling or flying while in deep sleep to those who are dreaming, as to what "awakening Is". [Either experience is rather... Breathtaking... wouldn't you say? how could this...InBreath... be spoken of?... When not even 'a whisper' can escape!?] =-)

It's like that crazy excitement, like that of a young child on first discovering it can finally walk those first few steps.

It's like a butterflies feeling in the gut, one of sheer joy one cannot contain.
Like the quote about .. ''drinking in the whole ocean in one gulp''
That's what it feels like, and that feeling can arise any time you want it to.
All you have to do is think about it. And there it is.
Amazing stuff. So amazing.

love ya
m.

[Drifter]

In man five 'powers' exist, which are the agents of perception---that is to
say, through these five powers, man perceives material things.
These are;
sight, which perceives visible forms;
hearing, which perceives audible sounds;
smell, which perceives odors;
taste, which perceives foods; and
feeling, which is all parts of the body and perceives tangible things.
These five powers perceive outward existences.

Man has also 'spiritual 'powers': These are;
imagination, which conceives things;
thought, which reflects upon realities;
comprehension, which comprehends realities;
memory, which retains whatever man imagines, thinks and comprehends.

The intermediary between the five outward powers and the inward powers is
the 'sense' which they posses in common---that is to say, the sense which
acts between the outer and the inner powers, conveys to the inward powers
whatever the outward powers discern.
It is termed the 'common faculty', because it communicates between the
outward and the inward powers and thus is common to the outward and inward
powers.

For instance, sight is one of the outer powers; it sees and perceives this
flower, and conveys this perception to the inner power-the common
faculty---which transmits this perception to the power of imagination, which
in turn conceives and forms this image and transmits it to the power of
thought; the power of thought reflects and, having grasp the thought,
conveys it to the power of comprehension; the power of comprehension, when
it has comprehended it, delivers the image of the object perceived to the
power of memory, and the memory keeps it in repository.

The outward powers are five: the power of sight, of hearing, of smell, of
taste and of feeling.
The inner powers are five; the common faculty, and the powers of
imagination, thought, comprehension and memory.

'Common sense' as defined by Abdul l baha.

The basic nature of human being, being In-The-World, each of us has an
inherent need to exist in the world into which we were born, and to
achieve a conscious and unconscious sense of ourselves as an
autonomous and distinct entity. The stronger this Being-In-The-World,
or "Dasein", the healthier the personality.
To fulfill one's own innate potentials (that is to develop Dasein)
requires constant effort and courage. The only way to enjoy a
meaningful life is by affirming and asserting our being-in-the-world---
even (if need be) in the face of social pressures to conform,
misguided parental standards, and the threat of death itself:
The hallmark of courage in our age of conformity is the capacity to
stand on ones convictions--not obstinately or defiantly (these are
expressions of defensiveness and not courage) nor as a gesture of
retaliation, but simply because these are what one believes. It is as
though one were saying through one's actions, "This is my self, my
being."....{Thus it is through self-assertion and} will, that the
human being experiences his identity. "I" is the "I" of " I can, I
Am."

Because Dasein is so personal a matter, no one else can tell an
individual how or what to be-in-the-world. Each of us must discover
our own potentials and values, and the best way to do so is by
experiencing each moment actively and spontaneously. In fact, even
such basic human drives as sexuality and aggression are of secondary
importance to Dasein. Drives are an abstraction, and perceiving
ourselves as "having" them dehumanizing. We 'are' our hunger, thirst,
sexuality, feelings, ideas, and so forth, and it is this experiencing
that is truly and distinctly human. -Rollo
May

"Modes of Being-In-The-World": a compound word, must be expressed
through hyphenation, an awkward method, to say the least, that does
not quite convey the unity inplied by the construct.

Existence is a non-egoic-non-dual-Facticity.
A knowledge of oneself as the human being who can interact with the
world is intrinsic---and thus exists prior to any actual contacts with
the environment.

[Drifter]

THE FOUR METHODS OF ACQUIRING KNOWLEDGE

There are only four accepted methods of comprehension -- that is to say, the realities of things are understood by these four methods.

The first method is by the senses -- that is to say, all that the eye, the ear, the taste, the smell, the touch perceive is understood by this method. Today this method is considered the most perfect by all the European philosophers: they say that the principal method of gaining knowledge is through the senses; they consider it supreme, although it is imperfect, for it commits errors. For example, the greatest of the senses is the power of sight. The sight sees the mirage as water, and it sees images reflected in mirrors as real and existent; large bodies which are distant appear to be small, and a whirling point appears as a circle. The sight believes the earth to be motionless and sees the sun in motion, and in many similar cases it makes mistakes. Therefore, we cannot trust it.

The second is the method of reason, which was that of the ancient philosophers, the pillars of wisdom; this is the method of the understanding. They proved things by reason and held firmly to logical proofs; all their arguments are arguments of reason. Notwithstanding this, they differed greatly, and their opinions were contradictory. They even changed their views -- that is to say, during twenty years they would prove the existence of a thing by logical arguments, and afterward they would deny it by logical arguments -- so much so that Plato at first logically proved the immobility of the earth and the movement of the sun; later by logical arguments he proved that the sun was the stationary center, and that the earth was moving. Afterward the Ptolemaic theory was spread abroad, and the idea of Plato was entirely forgotten, until at last a new observer again called it to life. Thus all the mathematicians disagreed, although they relied upon arguments of reason. In the same way, by logical arguments, they would prove a problem at a certain time, then afterward by arguments of the same nature they would deny it. So one of the philosophers would firmly uphold a theory for a time with strong arguments and proofs to support it, which afterward he would retract and contradict by arguments of reason. Therefore, it is evident that the method of reason is not perfect, for the differences of the ancient philosophers, the want of stability and the variations of their opinions, prove this. For if it were perfect, all ought to be united in their ideas and agreed in their opinions.

The third method of understanding is by tradition -- that is, through the text of the Holy Scriptures -- for people say, "In the Old and New Testaments, God spoke thus." This method equally is not perfect, because the traditions are understood by the reason. As the reason itself is liable to err, how can it be said that in interpreting the meaning of the traditions it will not err, for it is possible for it to make mistakes, and certainty cannot be attained. This is the method of the religious leaders; whatever they understand and comprehend from the text of the books is that which their reason understands from the text, and not necessarily the real truth; for the reason is like a balance, and the meanings contained in the text of the Holy Books are like the thing which is weighed. If the balance is untrue, how can the weight be ascertained?

Know then: that which is in the hands of people, that which they believe, is liable to error. For, in proving or disproving a thing, if a proof is brought forward which is taken from the evidence of our senses, this method, as has become evident, is not perfect; if the proofs are intellectual, the same is true; or if they are traditional, such proofs also are not perfect. Therefore, there is no standard in the hands of people upon which we can rely.

But the bounty of the Holy Spirit gives the true method of comprehension which is infallible and indubitable. This is through the help of the Holy Spirit which comes to man, and this is the condition in which certainty can alone be attained.

[Drifter]

Both by Thought and Feeling

(Presented at 2004 Franklin Merrell-Wolff Conference
Great Space Center, Lone Pine, CA)

Ron Leonard

When Franklin says, “both by thought and feeling,” this suggests that there are different aspects of our own nature or awareness that are peculiar to how we live the world, and how we orient to the Transcendent. He contends that we should determine our psychological strength so as to use it to progress toward our goals. This implies that self-knowledge is the first aspect of knowledge to concern us, so the first distinction to make is whether each of us is primarily a feeling type, a thinking type, or whatever.
Next we should consider the aspects of individuality that goes beyond simple thinking and feeling to those that make us unique. It is important then to come to an awareness of it so as to be able to access the values through it. This refers to the notion that Franklin was advancing a yoga that has more to do with individuality, or self-knowledge, than anything we have seen before.
By way of overview, let us consider three primary aspects of thought:
1. a psychological treatment of the three primary modes of consciousness (cognition, affection, and conation), as opposed to other ways to categorize it,
2. a specific focus on Franklin’s treatment of different kinds of thought (perception, conception, and Introception),
3. Application of thought in the direction of Transcendent Consciousness.
Modes of Relative Consciousness

The three modes of consciousness are cognition (thinking), affection (feeling), and conation (willing), which correlate to the three Indian approaches to spirituality, namely, jñana, bhakti, and karma yoga—the trimarga. These refer to knowledge, devotion, and action or works, respectively. Jñana is not just cognition as thinking, but has to do with a perceptual kind of knowledge (vidya) that reveals the true nature of things. This ultimately leads to Knowledge of the Self that constitutes the Liberation from suffering (ignorance, or avidya) that is sought.
The sense of devotion in bhakti is toward the Divine. It is, in a sense, an aspiration of one’s own soul toward the Transcendent. Karma yoga involves more practical action, perhaps dedicated to the same end, but more concrete and ritualized.
Turning within, each of us will sense a primary affinity for one of these three. However, it would not be uncommon to find a balance or combination of these. Whereas Franklin advocated developing the side for which we have the greatest facility, and using it to achieve a breakthrough, Carl Jung and Sri Aurobindo recommend striving for balance.
In Franklin’s treatment of psychology, he breaks it down somewhat differently. He gives precedence or the primary view to cognition, but here cognition is that which is pure, and that is knowing intrinsic concepts, so that only after language was developed would this sort of mode of relative consciousness be possible. This also relies on the power of abstraction, so the concept itself is an abstraction from the concrete warp and woof of our own experience, from which we then rearrange these relations of concepts into thinkable understanding after what has actually happened.
Below that he lists affection, but here what he would include is covered by both the Western view of affection as well as conation, the active aspect in our psyche—that which impels us to action. So, along with the specific feelings that he lists—love, hate, anger, desire, fear, a feeling of justice/injustice—there is also the impulse from our own emotional nature or passions toward responding to certain situations, toward acting appropriately (or inappropriately) in the world, and so on. The impulse to action, by itself, gets us into trouble. However, ethical principles alone are impotent. As David Hume asserts, without some connection to our emotional nature, our whole ethical structure is without any means for impelling one toward activating the principles that one might intellectually affirm.
On the third level, below affection, is what Franklin calls sensation, that which is passive and prelinguistic, having nothing to do with concepts. It is something that we might share with our animal nature. As has been amply demonstrated, there is an animal nature that passively experiences the world, having sense perception, which is able to distinguish certain things without presumably being able to think about it or conceive how one might deal with it.
This is the layer of consciousness with which he is least concerned, for when he attained Recognition, or Fundamental Realization, it had least impact upon the sensing nature. It had more on the feelings, or affection, but primarily it impacted the cognitive aspect, as he conceived thought to be.
This is interesting because it is not just simple thinking as a logical organization of concepts. “Thought” is a mass noun as well as a discrete noun, which has implications for what he calls Transcendent Thought, thought that is, in a sense, transcendent of all concepts—formless. Even so, at the same time, its reflection within our own psyches can take on possibly a thinking or knowing or feeling aspect. It is the Root of both thought and feeling. At that level it is formless; it is only within our psyches that it becomes differentiated. In and of itself, that which he calls Transcendent Thought is unconditioned and formless, above what we would identify as thought. To a nonthinking being it would not appear as thought at all.