[Fortean]

This is because it's an abstract concept created by any intelligent being that makes use of technology. Nowhere in the natural world is time required. The natural world is no more than a series of events, movement through space and the conversion of energy to matter and matter to energy. We may apply the measurement of time to these things but it is not required.
Where we do measure time we do it with devices that actually just count events for us. The clock counts rotations of a wheel, the digital watch counts vibrations in a crystal and the atomic clock counts vibrations in a caesium atom. All time measurement devices we have count events or movement through space.
Some argue that as you travel closer to the speed of light, time slows down. They attempt to prove this by measuring the difference that occurs in recorded time by two atomic clocks; one moving faster than the other. All they have achieved is to slow down the vibrations of the caesium atom. This could just as easily have been accomplished by cooling the clock. The cooler something is the slower it is at a quantum level. Einstein predicts that as an object gets closer to the speed of light its mass increases. This increase in mass causes a slowing at the quantum level and so appears to effect time. All it really does is effect the properties of the element whose events we are counting.
Those who believe time travel is possible, specifically the ability to travel back in time, miss a very important fact. At any given point in the past all the elements in the universe were in a particular state and in a particular place. This includes the matter and energy that the time traveller is made of. If all these elements were returned to their original location for a particular time in the past then this would also include the components that make up the traveller. The traveller could not possibly know that they had travelled under these circumstances. How much energy would be required to put everything in the universe back to where it was? And where would this energy come from? The fuel you needed to create the energy would itself have to be returned to its original location in space.
So there it is. Time is an abstract system of measurement. It is required to make use of technology but not to grow food or reproduce. It may take 9 months to create a child but what it really takes is a vast series of events and conversions of matter to energy and energy to matter. Once theses events have completed the child is born. It will still be born even if you do not know what time is.

[dleviwing]

Hi John (Fortean);
Welcome to ToeQuest;
It’s nice to see you haven’t been brainwashed yet. You are absolutely right so don’t let anyone argue these facts with you. Time is nothing more than a reference to motion measured with a clock that is subject to errors due to its own motion.

[mkirkpatrick]

Hello and welcome Fortean,I see you are from England like myself,there are so few of us
you know?
I agree time does not exist,nor really does space,both are illusions cast by the shadow
of relativity?


regards michael.

[Fortean]

Thanks for your welcome David and Michael.
It's a shame time doesn't exist because it would be fun to travel through it. I often wonder if some people treat science fiction as a prophet in some new religion rather than an enjoyable journey through someone's imagination.

Adding to the above post regarding the event counters we use to mark time...

Suppose the speed of light is slowing down, or at least observed to be slowing down. There are 2 possible explanations for this observation...
1. The speed of light is slowing down.
If it is slowing down then it could stop, but how fast was it going to start with. Theoretically there is no upper limit.

2. The clock we are using to measure this is going faster and the speed of light is a constant.
This is the most intriguing. If the underlying speed of the Universe is getting faster, i.e. all atomic structure is vibrating at a faster and faster rate, then it is reasonable to assume that at some point in the past it was not vibrating at all. The speed of the Universe was zero.
We know that when air is heated the atoms vibrate faster and the volume expands. Is the Universe a bubble of something. It is expanding and it could be vibrating faster. It is assumed that it occupied a smaller space in the past. Standing outside of the Universe you might interpret this as a very small and very dense thing that is warming up and getting bigger.
At what speed does an atom need to vibrate before it can no longer stay intact. What sort of atoms have gone for good and which will be the next one to go.
The background microwave radiation in the Universe may only be microwave now. What was it a few billion years ago when it was vibrating slower.
And does this mean the Universe is older or younger than currently thought.

...it should probably go in another forum.

Thanks, John.

[mkirkpatrick]

Thanks John,I thought your reply was very interesting,are things slowing down?
In particular your thoughts on light,where you say theoretically light has no upper or lower limits,I tend to imagine that maybe we all miss the point with regard "speed" and
really light is ubiquitous and encompasses all of the manifested universe,with time and
space illusionary shadows cast by the glow of radiance!


regards michael.

[dleviwing]

Originally Posted by fortean At what speed does an atom need to vibrate before it can no longer stay intact. What sort of atoms have gone for good and which will be the next one to go. The background microwave radiation in the Universe may only be microwave now. What was it a few billion years ago when it was vibrating slower. And does this mean the Universe is older or younger than currently thought.

Well John, I see that you actually are 14 years old! I hope you maintain your rationality of a pure mechanical universe as you progress through the academic systems of education. You’re off to a good start.

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Hi Fortean, welcome to the forum. It's great to see your clear logical rationality in print. I hope you find some common interested people here.

regards,
Lloyd

[quanta07]

Welcome to TOEQUEST, Fourtean....

This is because it's an abstract concept created by any intelligent being that makes use of technology

Your views are a classic product of old school thought.
Time is not a scalar, it is a vector space, created by expansion.
http://www.toequest.com/forum/mathem...pace-time.html

Nowhere in the natural world is time required.

How about existence? Can anything exist without time?
As you state your disbeliefs of the existence of time,
you also imply the end of questioning/discussing of the subject of time.

The important thing is not to stop questioning....Albert Einstein

It is clear there is no knowledge required or imagination used to state disbelief.
Time is not a manmade concept...nor is it an intangible item without description....
It can not be dismissed as nonexistent. To say that time does not exist
is to deny your own existence from birth to death....
If you are interested in a career in scientific research,
it requires determination to question outside the norm of thought.
You make decisions on the knowledge base you build throughout your learning career.
You are limited only by your own imagination and an outdated knowledge base.

Imagination is more important than knowledge.....Albert Einstein

The subject of 'time' and the understanding of 'time' requires a thirst for the quest.
Imagination requires an open mind and is mandatory in any quest for knowledge.
Some just quit searching for knowledge, become self-centered, and loose that childlike
wonderment they had in their youth. They give up awareness and the curiosity of nature.
Satisfied with limited knowledge?
How can time not exist and frequency be discussed?
Frequency(the inverse of time) exists, while time does not?
If you are who you say you are,
(because your views are highly congruent to another on this site),
Please note a quote provided by Lloyd Gillespie....

"To develop the skill of correct thinking is in the first place to learn what you have to disregard. In order to go on, you have to know what to leave out; this is the essence of effective thinking." Kurt Godel

Godel is right. The concept that man created time as a measurement tool must be discarded.
More up to date views of time are posted in the 'time' forum.

Denying the existence of time is achedemically lazy...........Q7

[dleviwing]

Q7;
Where is the real evidence that time is not just a tool for the measure of motion?
All there is, are theories that can be explained by other more classical theories. Stick to reality if you want to learn and understand more of science.

[Nobody]

I'd like to see the real evidence that motion isn't just a tool to measure time dilation. An infinite distance between point A and point B is reduced to zero proportionate to speed. At infinite speed, time stands still and hence there is no motion possible. So all concepts of literal motion of "particles" or "energy quanta" travelling through space, or space expanding through (?), are illusory.