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Join Date: Apr 2006 Rep Power: 0 | On The Development of a Theory of The Universe -
05-24-2006, 01:02 AM
They who know of no purer sources of truth, who have traced up its stream no higher, stand, and wisely stand, by the Bible and the Constitution, and drink at it there with reverence and humility; but they who behold where it comes trickling into this lake...
Last edited by Robert : 08-05-2006 at 01:16 AM.
Reason: Removed the [size] references
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|  | | | | Re: On The Development of a Theory of The Universe
IC:
Your response appears to be inconsistant with observation and includes many unprovable statements that are part of all common religious doctrines used to appease fear of death as I mentioned above.
Deductional reasoning points to evolution at all levels. Consciousness developed out of organization and complexity of matter.
Once artifical intelligence gains the ability to develop a consciousness of their own, we will have this question settled once and for all | | | | | | Re: On The Development of a Theory of The Universe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Nobody  IC:
Your response appears to be inconsistant with observation and includes many unprovable statements that are part of all common religious doctrines used to appease fear of death as I mentioned above.
Deductional reasoning points to evolution at all levels. Consciousness developed out of organization and complexity of matter.
Once artifical intelligence gains the ability to develop a consciousness of their own, we will have this question settled once and for all |
Mr.Nobody,
My comments involve spirituality (the spirit is conscious - conscious spirit) it does not involve organized religions. It is the esoteric truth not recognized by organized religions.
Please stop calling these comments unprovable statements - they are definitely provable statements - because you as a would be scientist do not prove them - you have the gall to say that they are unprovable - think of what a fool you make of yourself by this stance - as a would be scientist you promote a very selective science - that is blind to truth.
Once a human being rises above body consciousness (which you will have to do at the time of your death willingly or not) he/she experiences themselves as conscious ethereal spirit - one knows then that they are immortal and all fear of death leaves them - and they to say "O Death Where Is Thy Sting."
Consciousness in its Infinite state creates the organization and complexity of matter that it then manifests out of on its way to knowing and realizing itself..
We human beings functioning from 8% consciousness ( caused by our identifying with the electro-magnetic energy of - unconscious - thought that we create and are imprisoned in by the Law of Cause & Effect or Karma) are the ultimate machine or artificial intelligence - we do not need to develop consciousness - we need to stop identifying with the matter we create - and start identifying with the Infinite Consciousness that we are.
Only then will we have this question answered once and for all. Your comments are empty until you yourself prove or disprove the true or false status of consciousness by a scientific methodology i.e. stilling and focusing your attention in the eye-center.
Consciousness in expression cannot know itself - until it stops all expression - and merges back in and with itself - beyond all expression. Man is lost on the outside of his own expression.
What is that the knowledge of which makes all things known ?
M A N K N O W T H Y S E L F ! | | | | | | Re: On The Development of a Theory of The Universe
This is very interesting Joseph, and I think it could be science. But you speak of a 'universal law', and that's a bit too much I think. Because It only concerns the road from relatively simple molecules to much higher organised molecules. But then when you take this further to the living cell, going all the way up to us, I think ideology sets in, a system of belief, a certain mindset I think. Because, and I'm sorry to mention this, regarding the materialists out here, it is very difficult to comprehend that this very complicated cell, this 'Ferrari', that only works properly with all it's composing parts present and working, came out of a process of just chance and natural selection.
Regards,
Benedict Broere | | | | | | Re: On The Development of a Theory of The Universe
Mr. Nobody. You state:
"Once artifical intelligence gains the ability to develop a consciousness of their own, we will have this question settled once and for all."
But don't you think when this HAL emerges, it was just a matter of putting our consciousness into this apperently very complicated machine - uh, pardon me: HAL ? | | | | | | Re: On The Development of a Theory of The Universe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benedict Broere Because, and I'm sorry to mention this, regarding the materialists out here, it is very difficult to comprehend that this very complicated cell, this 'Ferrari', that only works properly with all it's composing parts present and working, came out of a process of just chance and natural selection.
Regards,
Benedict Broere | It is not difficult to visualize yourself as organized matter and nothing more. We are surrounded by matter, we come from dust and return to dust. If you trace the evolution of consciousness, you realize that it emerged gradually in recognition of the self- separate from its surrounding. Animals have an awareness on a lower level, plants even lower, perhaps even the warm sand on the beach has some degree of it.
What I am saying is that cognizance is not an on or off switch, it evolved through millions of years of the human ape staring at his surroundings and has nothing to do with a magic soul that has a life outside, independant of its biological vessel | | | | | | Re: On The Development of a Theory of The Universe
"It is not difficult to visualize yourself as organized matter and nothing more."
That's an open question science hasn't been able to answer yet.
"... and has nothing to do with a magic soul that has a life outside, independant of its biological vessel."
Who is suggesting that ?
It was of course Michale Behe who came up with this idea (and I hope I get the words right) of 'underivable complexity' - concerning this 'Ferrari', etcetera. And I thought he suggested ID with that. But formost he just poses critique on the usual explanation - chance, natural selection.
He gives a legitimate questionmark. And there still is no scientific explanation for the emergence of the cell. There are suggestions, but suggestions aren't scientific explanations.
This idea of matter permuated by consciousness is interesting.
It reminds me of Bergson. | | | | | | Re: On The Development of a Theory of The Universe
Benedict:
Anytime, we assign our awareness a distinct and separate entity divorced from this universe, anytime we marvel at the impossible complexity of our brains, anytime we separate ourself from animal and plant, anytime we speak of souls, anytime we wonder about life after death, anytime we worship a god, anytime we pray for preferential treatment, for perceived fairness, for ultimate justice, anytime we do those things we wish upon ourself as a spirit that has eternal life which uses a body to appear on earth.
Where is your soul, your consciousness before birth, after death, before your memories, when you sleep, when you are not deep in thought, when you drive......?
The consciousness is an emergent and natural side effect of complex organization that evolved antropically as a response to increasing entropy within the universe | | | | | | Re: On The Development of a Theory of The Universe
"The consciousness is an emergent and natural side effect of complex organization that evolved antropically as a response to increasing entropy within the universe."
This we don't know and is therefor worldview, personal preference.
When you think for instance: 'One and One is Two', you won't find these words and concepts within your braintissue, and you only will detect certain bio-electrical activity in certain parts of the brain. Also if you are looking for your 'Me', nothing specific in the brain seems responsible, while more likely the whole of brain and body is.
It seems selfawareness and thought are phenomena that emerge out of large amounts of active braincells and other bodyparts, with properties of their own, as vortexes and waves emerge out of the activity of large amounts of molecules H2O, while their properties can't be derived from the composing Hydrogen and Oxygen.
Meanwhile this 'side-effect' conciousness has that much influence on the planet that Al Gore almost goes crazy in telling us to change it rapidly in order to limit the coming troubles.
Why does complex organised material 'things' want to evolve? Why don't they die and add to the rest of the increasing entropy? Why does it want to life?
To me it has to do with individuals that live in highly competitive capitalistic and materialistic societies, and that project their need for survival into biological phenomena, thus adding to this worldview of "... complex organization that evolved antropically as a response to increasing entropy within the universe." | | | | | | Re: On The Development of a Theory of The Universe
Trace the history of human consciousness and find that it follows the path of biological evolution, unless you think that our ancestors possessed the same amount of awareness that you have now.
Consciousness or orientation and discovery of the self, emerged when life tried to understand death (Read Power of Myth by Joseph Campbell for the roots of all religion). Awareness of a beginning and an end and the limited lifespan in between invented creationists myths. Different religions evolved within distinct and separate cultures but share the common themes of birth, life, death, resurection.
Hence I link consciousness with the moment ape realized his mortality aside from his bioligically programmed survival instinct and formed societies
I view our consciousness as an abboration of intelligence as it does not serve a natural purpose. It presents an unfortunate and counter productive side effect of super organization but in the end perhaps a dead end and not the pinnacle of creation at all. 10,000 years of memory on a grain of sand within 13 billion years of infinite space cannot be called success. We may lose the ability of self awareness or trade ever more of it for the security of the hive, as it appears that this super organizm subjects the member for its own survival. Perhaps all this talk about consciousness and self awareness, god, and whatever will disapear into the dark and give way to the human ant hill.
Understand your history, understand nature and conclude:
Mind from matter and matter over mind | | | | | | Re: On The Development of a Theory of The Universe
Life can be pondered not as a force but as a riddle,
I'm off to work on my millenium problem, or sleep either one. | | | |
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