It’s About Time!

[kushith]

I haven’t written anything here for a long time. So does that mean I got it all figured out by now and nothing more to speculate or explore? Well far from it. So I thought that it’s about time I spent some time to think more about all the lose ends. So this time, let talk about time!

The more I think about time, the more I realized how flawed our whole understanding of time might be especially when we apply it to the matters of the universe.

Let me tell a quick story. Well right now its Halloween these days. I got into a situation where I was asked to guess the weight of a large pumpkin as a part of some sort of silly game. Personally, I don't remember lifting even an ordinary pumpkin so let alone a giant one. I just had no idea. To make my chances of winning even close to realistic I tried to think in terms of how did that pumpkin get there in the first place. Well somebody must have brought it there. Given it was in a place impossible for a forklift or crane to fit through, it must have been light enough for a human being or two to carry. So that way I narrowed it down to a certain range, but now I have to decide what exact number I should write down. Then I thought of how nature rarely makes things in nice rounded numbers while I imagine a lot of people submitting guesses that are just that. Numbers quantized by 10s 5s or even 100s. Though I didn't care much at all for winning the pumpkin and forgot all about it pretty soon, I kept thinking about how numbers and nature don't go along that well. The answer is obvious of course. Because humans invented numbers. Besides, the numbers we use so often and take for granted to be universal and absolute are in fact just one system of numbers in early civilization. So if mankind itself had so many ways of counting, imagine how many ways one can come up with numbering and math systems in the universe as a whole?

We use the second when we deal with formulas that involve time. We now have a precise definition as to what a second is based on something to do with the radiation of a Cesium atom, but this is purely for the sake of making sure all the scientists around the world use the same unit in relation to each other and by no means has anything to do with an actual fundamental unit in the universe. This line of thought further strengthens my belief that while numbers, calculations and mathematical models help make our lives better here on earth (and in the immediate surroundings) they are not the correct medium to decipher the universe.

Ironically, I believe that perhaps the only relevant "numbers" that actually mean something in the universe is the concept of zero and infinity. How we divide this scale into quantitative units is entirely up to us (or the aliens) or who ever wants to invent the concept of numbers their own way. But both zero and infinity are such unreal and abstract concepts so how do you suppose you deal with them? Or are they?

I remember seeing on TV some time that even chimps can understand the concept of zero. When there are no goodies to eat in the experimental chimp food dispenser thing they know the number of goodies is zero. Duh! When something is not moving at all (relative to something else) we say it's speed is zero. So while we really don't like doing math with zeros, it seems zero is not such a strange or unreal concept after all.

What about infinity? I remember once my high school math teacher asked the class what comes to our minds when we hear the word "infinity". One student said "The horizon where the sky and the sea seem to meet" another student said "Railroad tracks that seem to meet far away" and some one else said "The stars in the night sky". The teacher didn't seem to be very impressed with any of those answers saying all those things while they are relatively vast, have a finite distance from the viewer. In fact, she somewhat seem to favor my vision of infinity which was "a graph with axis extending in all directions"

So is infinity just an abstract concept that we can only visualize in theory but doesn't really exist in practice? This reminds me of something that happened more recently. I was sitting in the waiting room at the doctor's office. Most of the people waiting were either flipping through outdated magazines or listening to a song they have already heard a million times on their ipod or watching the silent TV hanging from the ceiling that they have no control over as to what channel is showing. I preferred to just sit and do absolutely nothing (yes I have the patience to do that without getting bored). Yet I couldn't help over hearing a kid at the far corner reading a book out loud to his Dad who was sitting next to him. It was about the solar system and space. At one point the kid asks "Daddy, how big is the universe?" and the Dad said "Space is infinite" and instantly the kid asks "What does Infinite mean Daddy?" "It means it's so big that it just keeps going on and on" "wow!" said the kid and went on to read the next page.

While I strongly disagree to this I didn't try to join this conversation either because they were too far and speaking loud enough for them to hear was just too distracting to the rest of the people or I just didn't want to dispute the belief of an authoritative Dad in front of his toddler. While I agree that the universe is vast and we haven't or simply can't explore the majority of it, it must be finite. Yet it certainly makes no sense for a space ship that some how managed to reach this "edge" of the universe to suddenly hit a wall because then we have to think about whats behind that wall, perhaps space can just fade and gradually get to a point of not existing at all (both time wise and space wise). In fact, I believe the universe is more of a space - time - energy - matter - cloud with varying "densities" (as opposed to a bubble that is regular in "shape" with a definite border).

Going back to time, we always assume that time is a constant phenomena all throughout the universe. We also tend to think that either time suddenly started to tick one day out of the bloom and maybe one day it might suddenly stop ticking (hopefully not any time soon) or that time has been ticking indefinitely all along and will continue on for ever. I don't believe the concept of time is as simple and linear as that when we start to extend our consideration towards spaces that are much further than the region of the universe we live in.

Just like matter and energy, and even space, I believe that time exists in the form of a "time rate" cloud". Where it ticks in different rates anywhere from zero to infinity. Actually, we know that wave speed = frequency x wave length. Note that frequency is a function of time while wave length is a function of space. We also know that light travels at a finite speed in a vacuum near the earth (299792458 m/s). If we apply the above formula to light, we have frequency x wave length = 299792458 m/s. But why is it a finite number? Unlike sound waves or sea waves that need to propagate one from the other, why should there be a delay between one electric field inducing the next magnetic field perpendicularly in case of light? There must be something not "normal" about the space and time around the earth and the universe around it. I think that there is a phantom component in that formula that we don't really see. That is the "time rate". So taking that into account, wave speed = frequency x wave length x time rate. So why do we get repeatable and predictable results from this formula in it's traditional form effectively making it correct despite the missing time rate component? That is because for us earthlings (who invented the units for time and distance used in it) the time rate turns out to be 1.

So for light near earth, 299792458 m/s = frequency x wave length x 1. Note how whether you have the last x 1 or not you still get the same answer. A wave can't have an infinite wave length because in order to have a something that can be defined as a wave needs to have a beginning and an end. This is because space is finite. Similarly, it makes no sense to have an infinite frequency because that requires the cycle of the wave to be so small that it becomes zero in other words having no cycle at all. The only way that the speed of light can approach infinity (as it should be) is when the time rate tends towards infinity. Likewise, the only way the speed of light can be zero (light that is frozen in one place as opposed to having no light at all) is when the time rate is zero.

These luxuriously finite time rates we enjoy in our observable universe is the only this preventing the universe from canceling out into its most natural state - the oblivion. Add the localized entanglement to this and the process slows down even more.

So how did our universe end up in this awkward most unnatural state of finite time and split oblivion into existences that inter convert into space - time - matter - energy? If such an occurrence is so rare to being close to impossible are we extremely lucky (perhaps miraculously) to exist at all. There is a catch.

Though it is absolutely unlikely or impossible for a non existing universe in the form of the oblivion to spontaneously split into existence, given the fact that the oblivion may enjoy an infinite time rate, even the most unlikely uncertainties would become a downright certainty. It is like playing a lottery where an infinite number of tickets are sold. You may think your chances of winning are zero. But if you have the luxury of buying all the infinite lottery tickets sold, you are a certain winner!

So when a universe is in a state where it has a finite time rate, though it has the urge to return to it's natural state of oblivion, unfortunately (and fortunately for us!) it takes a finite amount of time to complete this cycle. While each cycle is not on the same scale and magnitude of the other. All of them take a finite amount of time to "reset", whether its a pico second or close to infinite amount of time.

However, once it does get to that state, suddenly the concept of waiting for the next unlikely split becomes invalid and the oblivion immediately spawns into another split cycle. While it is impossible to measure the time between one cycle ending to another beginning, they also occur in totally different time cycle and what happens within each has no influence on the other. Therefore, time is a dynamic non constant yet finite concept.

I always thought that space - time - matter - energy that make up the universe are all equally important as they inter change and form combinations from one another. Yet now I think there is one component that might be more crucial than the others. The one that we all owe our mere existence to.

After all, it's all about time.

By the way, my guess for the pumpkin was 77lbs. But someone guessed 79 and it was a closer value to the right answer of 78.5 and won it. At least I was closer than some kids who thought the pumpkin was so big that it is 1000lbs! Oh well, the universe may look so big too but it still has a number. Yet what it is all depends on us as we invented numbers.

[mkirkpatrick]

Thanks Kushith,time is all in the mind!For where else could it possibly be? A hour on
toequest can seem but minutes,minutes carrying a heavy load can seem like hours.

For me personally time cannot exist,and is an illusion cast by the shadow of
relativity.




regards michael.

[Bob Campbell]

Hi Kushith,

I think your comments assume that time is continuous and a priori to creation. If that was true then time and space would be infinitely divisible. Zeno's arrow would never reach the target. There is a different way to look at it. Time and space are concepts based on phenomena derived from creation. In a discontinuous universe they can not be regarded as continous abstract things in themselves. They are quantized by the way atomic matter is synchronously projected and by the way light itself defines space in relation to each atom. Planck's constant indicates that it moves in a series of quantized pulses associated with the synchronous projection of atomic matter. There is more on my website if you are interested.

Regards,
Bob
www.cosmic-mindreach.com

[kushith]

Hi Bob,

I do believe that time is dynamic. It can "tick" faster and slower in different spaces and times. It can have a time rate of zero to infinity. It can exist in multiple instances with no inter-relation.

As for the concept of creation, my stand is that we humans created spirituality, not the other way around.

-K

[Bob Campbell]

Hi Bob,

I do believe that time is dynamic. It can "tick" faster and slower in different spaces and times. It can have a time rate of zero to infinity. It can exist in multiple instances with no inter-relation.

As for the concept of creation, my stand is that we humans created spirituality, not the other way around.

-K

You are missing the point I was making. People can believe and say whatever they want to but in a science forum it should have some substantive basis in fact and so lend practical meaning. Light has a universal relationship to each atom irrespective of relative velocity. That is a well established fact. And where there is no light there is no space, as in a black hole. General relativity interprets distortions in space and time to curvatures and even closures in a presumed spacetime continuum that is more fundamental than the behavior of matter but nevertheless conditioned by it. But in a discontinuous and synchronous universe time and space are determined as a result of the synchronous projection of atomic matter. That means they are specifically quantized into discrete measureable amounts relative to an atom. Otherwise there is no universal standard of measurement. For example if the spacetime continuum has been expanding from the supposed Big Bang, then the space occupied by atoms should be expanding with it, in which case there should be no relative expansion.

All the same high relative velocities in a discontinuous universe introduce distortions in the synchronous projection of atoms that contracts both space and time because the projection of stationary atoms becomes out of synch with the moving atoms. The integrated fabric of space and time gets warped. It is a bit like the wagon wheels in a western movie turning backwards because their relative position gets out of synch with the primary projection of the movie. In this sense there is a point to your comments in that both space and time become relative. They can become contracted in measureable ways.

And the wavelength of light from distant galaxies does get longer and longer toward the red end of the spectrum due to relative distortions in the movie projection of our galaxy relative to distant ones until it can be reabsorded back to the stellar sources from which it came when the stars die relative to us and the space defined by their light vanishes with them. This is integrated via a timeless quantum energy field like an empty screen behind the projection of the movie that spans and integrates history. There is a large body of evidence to support this view. So these effects do not come from a mystical belief about how time can have these magical qualities all by itself without scientific foundation. You must find some substantive basis to your ideas that can give them pragmatic meaning.

As for your last comment I thought we were talking about creation. Our animal ancestors are certainly spiritually animated and we didn't create them. We may have created formal religion and mathematics but we are born with an animating spirit that evolves and matures. Don't you have any spirit? If you take a rigid stand like this it just becomes a blind belief that inhibits further insight into your quest.

Best wishes,
Bob

[kushith]

There was a time when people thought they had "proof" that everything revolved around the earth becuase that is what was observed. We have to keep an open mind about what we know as "facts" in modern days.

When I said "we" created spirituality I was talking about we, living beings. And no, I don't belive in spirits, when we die its like turning a computer off without saving your work. (I know this is getting out of the topic)

I think a forum like this should be more open to new perspectives of lookig at TOE rather than a rigid fact reporting machine.

As for the expanding universe, what about the posibility that it is time that is collapsing? Too grim to be true? Oh well, the universe isn't for us for the taking. We have to get that to our heads first.

-K

[Bob Campbell]

There was a time when people thought they had "proof" that everything revolved around the earth becuase that is what was observed. We have to keep an open mind about what we know as "facts" in modern days.

When I said "we" created spirituality I was talking about we, living beings. And no, I don't belive in spirits, when we die its like turning a computer off without saving your work. (I know this is getting out of the topic)

I think a forum like this should be more open to new perspectives of lookig at TOE rather than a rigid fact reporting machine.

As for the expanding universe, what about the posibility that it is time that is collapsing? Too grim to be true? Oh well, the universe isn't for us for the taking. We have to get that to our heads first.

-K

Hi Khusith,

I just don't think you have done enough home work. We can not just deny or ignore obvious well established facts without undermining our sanity. The observed facts in the geocentric model of the universe were mathematically explained by a system of epicycles. There was no realistic concept of gravity at the time. That had to wait for the researches of Copernicus, Galilieo, Kepler and then Newton. If there is no substantiating basis to ideas presented here then we might as well be telling fairy tales.

People regularly talk about animal spirits associated with how patterned emotional energies animate them. These emotional patterns derive from the way our autonomic nervous system fuels patterned energies into conscious awareness. We consciously tailor and refine these emotional patterns in our thoughts and commit our body to act accordingly. This process of patterned emotional feedback into the consciousness is known scientificly to be associated with what is called the Limbic System in our brain. it is anatomically identified in any nervous system text books. It is the oldest part of our brain having evolved with the reptiles and early mammals over a period of 400 million years. So our emotional patterns are indebted to our animal ancestry. We did not just invent them out of the blue. The human race has not changed significantly in this respect in many tens of thousands of years.

You can say that you do not believe in spirits if you want to of course but you are saying that you do not believe that you have emotional patterns that animate your own thoughts and actions. Isn't this rather a serious self-contradiction of one's very being?

And if you believe that you face total psychic extenction at death then you must believe that everyone who has ever lived anywhere in the universe also does. But this belief then transcends your own physical existence here on Earth. It is a universal statement about the whole universe throughout the whole of time. How can you make such a statement if you believe that you were created a few years ago by a genetic accident and that your whole life has no transcending meaning. This is just a blind self-negating belief without foundation. Can you not see a basic contradiction in that?

How can time be collapsing when there is evidence that it has a fixed relationship to atomic matter? I can believe that the stars are really just fairies if I want to but it isn't a very healthy thing for me to do.

Regards,
Bob

[paradigm]

Everything that exists is a unit of time, because everything is constructed and evolves and dies and in so doing defines itself as a unit of time.

The detailed specification of time as the construction and evolution of everything, is the paradigm of science.

Everything that exists, does so in every moment of time.

Because the construction possibilities of the Universe are infinite, every moment of time for everything that exists is an infinite moment of time.

See the essay, "An Infinite Moment of Time", which is located at: http://members.westnet.com.au/paradigm/forever.pdf

paradigm