[TinyTree]

Originally Posted by <<<GUILLE>>> Michael, Is there any scientific or at least philosophical proof that the universe is eternal/infinite?

It is not known if the universe is finite or infinite. It is a useful discussion to ask how big the universe is- what is its length and width? In the spacetime coordinates, how big is it?

That is a challenge for measuring the probability of the universe as a whole- it is so large that it is difficult to quantify- both for entropy, and for the probability of the state vector.


I have not seen an analysis of the entropy of the entire universe, but it would be interesting to see. I believe I have seen a reference to such an analysis.. but would like to follow up on that. Has anyone here seen an analysis of the entropy of the entire universe?

At some point I will attempt an analysis of the probability of the state vector for the universe as we know it.. but I am a long ways from that as we haven't even quantified the probability of small mathematical objects very exactly.. I am hoping to do some research into Markov chains- as that is an already explored mathematical domain, although it has not been applied to physical systems with self propagating structures, as far as I am aware in any event.


The probability of the state vector is affected by all events reaching backwards on the light cone from the present. The light cone defines those events which can impact on the present- those events outside the light cone (like those events happening at this moment on a distant star) can not affect the present on earth, and are not thus impacting the probability of the state here on earth.

thus, the probability of the state here on earth needs to take into account a light cone which reaches backwards (and laterally through space time) a vast distance since the earth is quite old, according to our understanding.

However, as I will hope to show, we can make useful approximations to the probability of the state vector using analysis of subsections of the system. Thus the impact of light from distant stars can be "usefully condensed". The stellar explosions which have been historically visible in our sky certainly have had impacts on the choices made by inhabitants of this earth, but these can be "approximated" by "local decisions". That is- the deterministic evolution of a distant phenomena which leads to a specific conclusion can be understood as single event independent of distance- (unless there were aliens interfering with stellar evolution, which if true, would make the approximation inaccurate)

[AntonioLao]

long, long time ago, fractal founder Benoit Mandelbrot posed a simple
question: How long is the coastline of Britain? The answer is infinity.

[mkirkpatrick]

I fail to seehow you can ever measure the measurelessness.that just does not
add up any way you juggle the script.





kind regards michael.

[AntonioLao]

A circle also has no end. It just goes around and around. If you live on the circumference, there is no way to know the existence of the center unless there is width for the second dimension.

[Guille]

Originally Posted by AntonioLao A circle also has no end. It just goes around and around. If you live on the circumference, there is no way to know the existence of the center unless there is width for the second dimension.

But it is yet a finite measurement, easilly to find: 2xpixr

[mkirkpatrick]

It is totally absurd to think that you could measure eternity or infinity,for that is
what the universe is!You could if it were possible,accelerate from the earth at
the speed of light and maintain that speed for lets say 1000 billion years,then
decelerate,draw to a stop,wake up from your cryrogenic slumber,and look out of the window,would you see maybe a barrier with a halt sign on it saying this is the end of the universe,hardly,whatyou then could do,is go back to sleep for
another 100 billion years,and accelerate away again,if you had thefuel you could
keep on doing this for trillions and trillions of centuries,and after all that where would you be,youwouldbe where you have always been in the eternal now?The
only thing that is finite is our limited understanding.

kind regards michael.

[Guille]

Originally Posted by mkirkpatrick It is totally absurd to think that you could measure eternity or infinity,for that is what the universe is!You could if it were possible,accelerate from the earth at the speed of light and maintain that speed for lets say 1000 billion years,then decelerate,draw to a stop,wake up from your cryrogenic slumber,and look out of the window,would you see maybe a barrier with a halt sign on it saying this is the end of the universe,hardly,whatyou then could do,is go back to sleep for another 100 billion years,and accelerate away again,if you had thefuel you could keep on doing this for trillions and trillions of centuries,and after all that where would you be,youwouldbe where you have always been in the eternal now?The only thing that is finite is our limited understanding. kind regards michael.

Of course it is stupid to think that one can measure infinity or etenrity. I know. I don't think so. I think first that there is no such thing in realiy as infinity and eternity, and second that we can measure the universe or anything in it (such as circles) because they are all finite. A circle is finite, ok, maybe you can go around and around the circumference, but what if you mark a point you start with a blue pen? Then when you arrive you will stop, and you will have done the whole circle in finite time therefore it is finite space. And also you can just find the radius times 2pi or diameter times pi. It is finite, anyway. It is the kind of fallacy (to think that the circles are infinite) that have come humans into such a mess about the concept of infinity.

[mkirkpatrick]

Guille my friend,

You say that it is a kind of fallacy to think that a circle is infinite,well maybe

that could be right,but I was not talking about any circle,if you wentin a straight

line in any direction,you could go on For-ever Enternal,and to try and measure

that would be plain silly and utterly pointless.

kind regards michael.

[Guille]

Michael,

Not only it is that straight lines are finite (in reality, but maybe magimaticians wonder about infinities, but they don't exist), but also that it was already proven by several physicists that the straight line doesn't exist (all lines are curved).

[mkirkpatrick]

Originally Posted by <<>> Michael, Not only it is that straight lines are finite (in reality, but maybe magimaticians wonder about infinities, but they don't exist), but also that it was already proven by several physicists that the straight line doesn't exist (all lines are curved).

With all due respect my friend,I find that that answer that all
lines are curved is hogwash!There is no one on this here planet that could prove this(these are only theories,(and theories are Notfacts)andwith regard the infinite as not existing,I am astounded as to how you could think that,what do you imagine then at the end of the fictional finite universe,a car park prehaps?

kindest regards michael.