[Mohan.C]

Originally Posted by G_burnett hi Mohan this seems to be in conflict with free will having anything to do with it or not in the sense of one going to a better place not running from where he left but then it seems to be covered in your next statement being will then, is a matter of wanted necessity by consciousness? Hmm maybe you should explain intelligence relative to the post? This is very interesting to me. Peace~ Graham

I meant intelligence as it is defined in a dictionary-"The ability to gain and apply knowledge and skills".
With evolution intelligence grows... And evolution is a direct consequence of necessity(to survive).....
By my next statement what I meant was that awareness or consciousness recognizes the necessity to change and evolution occurs slowly but surely....

[G_burnett]

Originally Posted by Mohan.C I meant intelligence as it is defined in a dictionary-"The ability to gain and apply knowledge and skills". With evolution intelligence grows... And evolution is a direct consequence of necessity(to survive)..... By my next statement what I meant was that awareness or consciousness recognizes the necessity to change and evolution occurs slowly but surely....

Ty Mohan

I have a lot on my mind these days so this may not come out with the wanted symmetry. I would be first to say the definition of intelligence needs redefining these days. The reason thus is said is that there ... be, more understood? I will give this more thought.
Your statement following indicates an implied no consequence of independent persona will have any thing to do with evolution?

I would marry this will to evolution in that it would heighten and evenly sometimes, the occasion lessen the survival of form to quantifiable state of intelligence. Example given would be the deer crossing the forest road to what perceived a better tasting meadow grass just to being run over by a logging truck every time one with such perception crosses. For some reason despite the will we have not just become the deer who ignores the will to choose but we excel to greater heights. We are it seems the deer that knows where the grass is better but chooses not to go there. Then there are we who go anyways and sometimes get lucky or wait for the truck to pass.

Those not with learned interest are left behind suffering the bad food into lesser form and those ahead ... varied scenarios. They who are the form do have the fact all said that it was the will factor wanting the better food that got him where he is or not if will ignored. A big leap maybe this is, in more ways then one for the deer?

Is this "... awareness or consciousness recognizes the necessity to change and evolution occurs slowly but surely..." unquote mean the necessity was the will made manifest?

Hope i am not a bother sir lol
Peace Graham

[Mohan.C]

Originally Posted by G_burnett Ty Mohan I have a lot on my mind these days so this may not come out with the wanted symmetry. I would be first to say the definition of intelligence needs redefining these days. The reason thus is said is that there ... be, more understood? I will give this more thought. Your statement following indicates an implied no consequence of independent persona will have any thing to do with evolution? I would marry this will to evolution in that it would heighten and evenly sometimes, the occasion lessen the survival of form to quantifiable state of intelligence. Example given would be the deer crossing the forest road to what perceived a better tasting meadow grass just to being run over by a logging truck every time one with such perception crosses. For some reason despite the will we have not just become the deer who ignores the will to choose but we excel to greater heights. We are it seems the deer that knows where the grass is better but chooses not to go there. Then there are we who go anyways and sometimes get lucky or wait for the truck to pass. Those not with learned interest are left behind suffering the bad food into lesser form and those ahead ... varied scenarios. They who are the form do have the fact all said that it was the will factor wanting the better food that got him where he is or not if will ignored. A big leap maybe this is, in more ways then one for the deer? Is this "... awareness or consciousness recognizes the necessity to change and evolution occurs slowly but surely..." unquote mean the necessity was the will made manifest? Hope i am not a bother sir lol Peace Graham

I think I'll say it like this----The one who is more aware(conscious) of his necessities and his surroundings accepts change better so he evolves better and in turn becomes more intelligent. Necessity is present for everyone, but the level of awareness is different. Those left behind will have to open their eyes a wee bit more, to be aware and to evolve.

I think necessity was a cause evolution an effect and awareness(consciousness) was like a mediator(the way). Does that make necessity as a manifestation of the will or consciousness(awareness) as the will.


(Where there's a will there's a way)...

[mkirkpatrick]

Thanks Mohan my young friend for your last two posts,where theres a will,theres a UNiverse! Without will we would be as naught?




regards michael.

[arthur]

Hmm maybe you should explain intelligence relative to the post? This is very interesting to me. Peace~ Graham

Hi Graham.
I don't know if this was a private question or a public one, but whatever. I thought that it was about time that this simple word was given a meaning. So from my Universal Law I offer,------Any information received via the senses should be considered as experience.
Human beings have the wherewithal to experience as well as to hold memory of experience, it is this which facilitates learning, anything learned becomes knowledge. The skill and success with which this learning is used is indicative of intelligence.
Knowledge is no more than the result of experience.

All creatures have, to a greater or lesser degree, the wherewithal to experience as well as to hold memory of experience, it is this which facilitates learning, anything learned becomes knowledge. The skill and success with which this learning is used is indicative of intelligence. This applies to all creatures from microbes, fruit flies and elephants.
Given that such creatures as maggots, crabs and apes have intelligence what is it that makes them different from you and I?
* What is the difference?

arthur

[Graybeard]

Good post Arthur.

Hmmmmm .... A minor difference. I don't know that I would go so far as to say all creatures, or attribute memory to microbes, fruit flys or maggots.

My experience is that these critters have such a short lifespan that an investment in the expensive resource of memory would be counter productive.

I think they just respond to surrounding stimuli.

No amount of getting its wings burnt prevents a moth from flying into the light. No memory = no experience gained. This is a successful evolutionary strategy for short term life spans ... a few days or weeks.

All creatures experience, but some have no memory of that experience. Creatures with short term lifespans usually breed in hundreds or thousands per mating. They can afford for some, or even many, to perish thru no memory.

Creatures with long gestation periods and few or one offspring have placed a HUGE investment in a single roll of the dice. Therefore memory, though an expensive resource, is worthwhile having. As they will live a long time they will come across many dangerous situations where memory will pay off.

But I do agree that we have no claim to superiority over any other creature.

cool bananas ... greg

[G_burnett]

Originally Posted by Mohan.C I think I'll say it like this----The one who is more aware(conscious) of his necessities and his surroundings accepts change better so he evolves better and in turn becomes more intelligent. Necessity is present for everyone, but the level of awareness is different. Those left behind will have to open their eyes a wee bit more, to be aware and to evolve. I think necessity was a cause evolution an effect and awareness(consciousness) was like a mediator(the way). Does that make necessity as a manifestation of the will or consciousness(awareness) as the will. (Where there's a will there's a way)...

Ty my friend, thus above is most interesting. It sounds like who crossed the road first the chicken or the egg.

Those left behind simply follow and learn from the leader, leader gone, learn from rote, circumstance of necessity or form perishes. This is more the indication of paradox circumstance pronounced in the opposite perceived effect of evolution in deer where the stag follows behind and as the first of his herd perishes by the waiting wolf being first in line the palate there are more to take the place an be followed, slowed evolution at its finest of the buck.

The more powerful decided during rut and not linked to necessity evolution other then the learned rote of following as a definitive form of evolution to the survival of the more intelligent of the persona and leaving the more intelligent female to become more intelligent ... as heard further such be the case that intelligence is passed genetically through the genes of the female in the animal kingdom.

The cause of this scenario would seem to be, in term cause and effect not conscious will until later up the scale.

Somewhere there has to be a marriage of will to evolution, the actual wanting to evolve outside of necessity, this is the key to consciousness (awareness) understood, feeling good and choosing such over the bad aware of is will manifest not necessity cause, pleasure learned is better that saying necessity as the cause by itself become negated is what I am saying and I see this in varied example.

If necessity was the cause evolution an effect thereof free will must be the end result of a successfully evolution .... the effect ... hmmm interesting thus said above leads to this conclusion by me an more akin to one of the monkeys at a typewriter finally hitting the keys at random achieving ... lol to this end: refinement of evolution possible?

I have to move on here to another post ... please continue to share.

~best regards Graham

[G_burnett]

Originally Posted by mkirkpatrick Thanks Mohan my young friend for your last two posts,where theres a will,theres a UNiverse! Without will we would be as naught? regards michael.

Hi Michael ..
Took the question right out of my mind u did ... but I answered both I hope to some degree my friend ...Peace! Graham

[G_burnett]

Originally Posted by arthur Hi Graham. I don't know if this was a private question or a public one, but whatever. I thought that it was about time that this simple word was given a meaning. So from my Universal Law I offer,------Any information received via the senses should be considered as experience. Human beings have the wherewithal to experience as well as to hold memory of experience, it is this which facilitates learning, anything learned becomes knowledge. The skill and success with which this learning is used is indicative of intelligence. Knowledge is no more than the result of experience. All creatures have, to a greater or lesser degree, the wherewithal to experience as well as to hold memory of experience, it is this which facilitates learning, anything learned becomes knowledge. The skill and success with which this learning is used is indicative of intelligence. This applies to all creatures from microbes, fruit flies and elephants. Given that such creatures as maggots, crabs and apes have intelligence what is it that makes them different from you and I? * What is the difference? arthur

Very good question and more posts to it already I will curtail reading to reply not to leave my train of thought ...

first i would offer that there is further form then the two form human beings and creatures that could meet the stated boundaries of quantitative intelligence that knowledge is no more then the result of experience and the use of knowledge can indicate/quantify intelligence.

lets go further down. the proton interacts with a parallel stream moving in the opposite direction to then shift direction perpendicular, maintaining integrity as a proton stream but from the experience changes wave form and not very intelligent we can say because it changes to end of its nature prior to the circumstance, to mass, eventually one way in chance, ... but it does meet the requirements of defined learning lets not have it happen again as it no longer is in the path parallel to another coming its way as before and has moved in different direction ... both proton stream did this and one may to more evolve form the other to less.

What is the difference? One form has not become sentient form to have will manifest, has not evolved to skills of collected form where choice is possible to be made and having the ability to ??? move, scream look out? or even see in advance by multiple experience or senses of perception? But still in its own way it has changed, evolved.

the difference between you and I? The grouping of form combined with energy still manifest on the EMF and I dare say the GMF ... the better ability to choose in collective form, the option given by availability of multiple choice, and evolution by circumstance effect to have more options to event.

Quantify the lesser to having less intelligence is just a matter of varied amount of collected form being noted and quantified not so much as use of it the factor of note because use of it is relative. Give a ten to the survival of an elephant crossing the desert to a known water source needed to perceived drought coming. and a four to Bush perhaps sort of thing? There may be no difference quantifiable as intelligence being such relative to view.

Regards and butt in any time, surprise us!

~Peace graham

[G_burnett]

Originally Posted by Graybeard Good post Arthur. Hmmmmm .... A minor difference. I don't know that I would go so far as to say all creatures, or attribute memory to microbes, fruit flys or maggots. My experience is that these critters have such a short lifespan that an investment in the expensive resource of memory would be counter productive. I think they just respond to surrounding stimuli. No amount of getting its wings burnt prevents a moth from flying into the light. No memory = no experience gained. This is a successful evolutionary strategy for short term life spans ... a few days or weeks. All creatures experience, but some have no memory of that experience. Creatures with short term lifespans usually breed in hundreds or thousands per mating. They can afford for some, or even many, to perish thru no memory. Creatures with long gestation periods and few or one offspring have placed a HUGE investment in a single roll of the dice. Therefore memory, though an expensive resource, is worthwhile having. As they will live a long time they will come across many dangerous situations where memory will pay off. But I do agree that we have no claim to superiority over any other creature. cool bananas ... greg

Hi Greg

Ty for the ponder.
I have to say "memory is relative."
All else is burned out of me
right now
sorry if i intruded.

Peace! graham