[mkirkpatrick]

Originally Posted by Coldcreation Oh, sorry, I was under the (false) impression that your arguments were somehow scientific in nature. My fault. I should have read more before posting. Incidentally, your sentence above makes no sense. "The universe is one of consciousness..." is like saying the football match is one of frolic. Question, then I'll be on my way, once again: Why do you bother posting ideas in a science forum based on a concept (mentioned at the end of your quote above) that has absolutely nothing to do with science, and, that are in flat contradiction with (or at the very least have nothing to do with) the laws of physics. The other point to make before my departure from this thread: Consciousness, by any stretch of the imagination, has zero to do with ID. The word(s) you should have used throughout this thread in its place is 'soul' (or spirit). Many people have made this same mistake (again nothing personal). CC

Thanks CC,a football match is one of frolic,as far as I am concered.This thread is about
our concept of the TOE,this is my concept,one of consciousness,nothing to do with science,rather more to do about how I perceive reality!(nothing personal,of course).
regards michael.

[chazzysaw]

The question is: what is consciousness and how does it manifest itself in a universe governed by a specific set of natural laws?
I do not believe consciousness manifest it self into the universal life. I believe life to be the result of consciousness. Like breathing, we inhale oxygen and the result is exhaling carbon dioxide. Like dipping a cloth in water, the result is a wet cloth. I believe consciousness has existed, is existing and will exist and the result has always been universal life. It's all just one thing. The universe is saturated with consciousness, it's everywhere it's within and without. I believe consciousness holds one of the keys to the T.O.E.

[mkirkpatrick]

Originally Posted by chazzysaw The question is: what is consciousness and how does it manifest itself in a universe governed by a specific set of natural laws? I do not believe consciousness manifest it self into the universal life. I believe life to be the result of consciousness. Like breathing, we inhale oxygen and the result is exhaling carbon dioxide. Like dipping a cloth in water, the result is a wet cloth. I believe consciousness has existed, is existing and will exist and the result has always been universal life. It's all just one thing. The universe is saturated with consciousness, it's everywhere it's within and without. I believe consciousness holds one of the keys to the T.O.E.

Just a brief note to say thanks Chazzysaw,I really enjoyed this post of yours,and the
quiddity of the way you expressed it.


regards michael.

[austintorn@aol.com]

Awareness or consciousness, seems to only be able to observe the self, actually only that part of the self that is on display as the contents of the mind at any given moment.

This awareness, intimately known and referred to by us as ‘I’ (Capital ‘I’ in single quotes), or even the soul, by some, is the part of us that is free to be, for it cannot act (do); it can only observe. It is the audience, the witness. We are all familiar with ‘I’, almost taking it for granted, for we note not the sea in which we “see”. When ‘I’ looks at the contents of the mind, note that ‘I’ is not itself the contents of the mind—yes, we often confuse what’s floating in the stream of consciousness—objects of thought—with the water itself—awareness. It is famously said that ‘I’ am not this body... ‘I’ am not even this thought, nor the contents of the mind, and that ‘I’ may even a part of space-time itself, made of the fundamental substance. So, ‘I’ am not an object. ‘I’ am the universal subject. ‘I’ could even be the Cosmos itself.

However, being subjects only, all ‘I’s are interchangeable, and, as such, may be more a part of space-time than of us as individuals, our total uniqueness of personhood being formed at birth, through our life, and lost at death, although the “soul” may live on, as some say, sort of, in an unperceptive immortality, that is, if it was always part of the Cosmos to begin with.

Indeed, it seems that Awareness would have little or nothing to do if there were not something for it to be aware of, and, so, of course, there is much to be aware of while we live our lives, although one can certainly realize pure awareness by going into the selfless meditative state of pure being by removing all of one’s thoughts, for meditation is “not what you think”. But, then, after we die, I’m afraid that would be the end of any unique and enduring personal identity, although, some may be happy to know, that their awareness might ever endure in rejoining—if it never left—the eternal substance at large in the Cosmos in its immortal, but non-perceiving reality, for what’s to see without the brain’s sense collection, memories and associations? Ditto for the time before we as born. What was my soul doing for an eternity before I was born? Probably not much. What will it do after I die, with no mind, no brain, no memories, no senses, no feelings? Probably not much. Well, perhaps I can still still save the “soul” for some with my last ditch efforts herein, although I don’t much believe it, but, as you see, not much would be left of it and it would have practically no value beyond its pure being, with no thoughts happening, but, maybe that’s not too bad, for some with bad lives, for, as in meditation, we totally escape all existence.

So, it seems that the Cosmos itself comes alive in us through mind, matter, or both. Mind and matter, if separate seeming, are really the two opposite sides of the same coin of Information, awareness providing the ultimate glimpse of cosmic information from the inside—and matter providing it from the outside, especially in quantum physics, although in a limited way, as when Mother Nature slips up and reveals her true and counterintuitive self.

Indeed, minds, too, seem to sense in another dimension, trying out new ideas through ideas through scenarios of consequences, collapsing possibilities into the one reality that we “choose”. Consciousness could be the mysterious agent which focuses the spread out quantum ‘object’s’ waves of existence so we can observe them at one place as the objects of thought.

As for our accepted version reality, it exists in it’s usual form only in the brain’s simulation model of reality, the VERY SAME model employed in our night dreams, when the model is driven only by noise, static, and memory, but in a stunning and realistic virtual reality that is usually indistinguishable from real waking reality, aside from lucid dreaming in which one realizes s/he is having a dream—perhaps the ultimate experience. Yes, all we ever “see” are the insides of our heads, our reality referred back out whence the waves, vibrations, or fields may have come from, and probably did come from in our wide-awake dream— one that comes from real external input, I hope, if we are not asleep and dreaming, although its ultimate source may be extra dimensional. We see colors, like red, let’s say, but there are no colors out there, really, just differing frequencies of light waves and reflective properties of surfaces. Furthermore, the brain maintains color even in unusual lighting conditions. The same is true with sound waves, taste, smell, and vision. All reality is fabricated by the brain, as we can tell by still feeling the texture of a surface by scratching it by a pencil—it is referred to the end of the pencil even though we have no sense organs way out there, although, it is all hopefully fabricated in a way that is useful to us, such as when the wings of a hang glider are felt as an actual extension of the arms.

Yes, reality is painted with the forms that we are made to see, but, what’s really out there? Waves, fields, interference patterns? Even the brain’s processing time, speedy as it seems, is hidden from us, our consciousness itself being referred back in time a bit, like the tape-delay used by live TV shows.

As for time itself, we only experience it and its apparent rate as a succession of events appearing over the horizon of consciousness, this succession of frames exposing our living film into an illusion of fluid motion.

Well, many have tried to dissect consciousness, confine it, reduce it to something else, but, it remains fairly intractable. I suggest that it is irreducible just because it is so fundamental and, thus, cannot be explained in terms of more basic entities, nor can it be located since it lies beyond our spatial dimensions. It is as if the intrinsic properties underlying physical dispositions are themselves experiential properties of some hidden dimension, and permeate everything that there is, both mind and matter. Experience is perhaps a fundamental property of the universe. Materialism’s inability to explain how mind could arise from supposedly inert and non-experiential matter stems from its faulty premise, for matter is indeed experiential in and of itself. DNA creates us from inert matter and then we have consciousness.

Mind and matter are made of the same Stuff, being just different tokens of the same type, each “sentient” and perhaps both made of the eternal substance. Mind experiences the present mattering moment, and matter records the minded past from the mind. In other words, Present Mind and Past Matter combine the frames of the film of Space and Time that lives and plays in us as Consciousness, Mind taking Space and Matter doing Time, yet, both derive from the Eternal Substance, where whence lies Experiential Being itself, for Life’s great riddle of the Oneness of Mind Stuff and Brain Matter is that Mind really Matters, Matter ever Minds.

It could also be that consciousness is the only thing that’s real, but that’s another story.

[Coldcreation]

Originally Posted by austintorn@aol.com ...This awareness, intimately known and referred to by us as ‘I’ (Capital ‘I’ in single quotes), ... So, ‘I’ am not an object. ‘I’ am the universal subject. ‘I’ could even be the Cosmos itself...Indeed, it seems that Awareness would have little or nothing to do if there were not something for it to be aware of, ...So, it seems that the Cosmos itself comes alive in us through mind, matter, or both. Mind and matter, if separate seeming, are really the two opposite sides of the same coin of Information, ... as when Mother Nature slips up and reveals her true and counterintuitive self. ... Mind and matter are made of the same Stuff, ... Present Mind and Past Matter combine the frames of the film of Space and Time that lives and plays in us as Consciousness, Mind taking Space and Matter doing Time, yet, both derive from the Eternal Substance, where whence lies Experiential Being itself, for Life’s great riddle of the Oneness of Mind Stuff and Brain Matter is that Mind really Matters, Matter ever Minds. ...

Begining words with a capital letter, such as matter, mind, time, mother nature, cosmos, consciousness, awareness, only serves to emphasis the spirited (religious) nature or your argument. It seems an attempt on your part to make these items superior to man (which would have a lower case 'm'). There must be theology threads where you can place your misplace diatribe. At least, there, you may find some likeminded individuals willing to share, cherish, your viewpoint.

BTW, the "Eternal Substance" you write about was disproved long ago by the famous (infamous) Michelson-Morley experiment. Those capital letter won't make it real.

'I' remain at your disposion, nevertheless, if at all 'I' can help clarify the boundary condition that separates the ethereal from the physical world in which we live. It is important to recognize the boundary condition if one is to someday do away with it.

CC



.

[mkirkpatrick]

Consciousness is the hallmark of existence,or that is how it appears to me,and many
others who have visited this thread,embedded within all energy,and matter,lies,
consciousness.Silent and un-assuming,just there to enable manifestation to evolve as
programed by the evolutionary cycle.



regards michael.

[Coldcreation]

Originally Posted by mkirkpatrick Consciousness is the hallmark of existence,or that is how it appears to me,and many others who have visited this thread,embedded within all energy,and matter,lies, consciousness.Silent and un-assuming,just there to enable manifestation to evolve as programed by the evolutionary cycle. regards michael.

With or without conscious beings things like galaxies, stars, planets and rocks would still exist. So your sentence: "Consciousness is the hallmark of existence" is inaccurate. Things exist without consciousness, and so, consciousness is not the hallmark of existence.

It follows, too, that your other sentence; "embedded within all energy, and matter, lies, consciousness" [I took the liberty to correct the spacing errors for readability] is erroneous when 'consciousness' is defined in the standard English or American dictionary sence. If you use it synonimously with some kind or deity (or IDer) please make that clear, so at least we communicate on equal terms. Or maybe you have yet another definition.

If you think all things have consciousness, say, a grain of dust, a photon, toothbrush, whatever, please explain...

I have no idea what your last sentence is supposed to mean.

CC

[mkirkpatrick]

Originally Posted by Coldcreation With or without conscious beings things like galaxies, stars, planets and rocks would still exist. So your sentence: "Consciousness is the hallmark of existence" is inaccurate. Things exist without consciousness, and so, consciousness is not the hallmark of existence. It follows, too, that your other sentence; "embedded within all energy, and matter, lies, consciousness" [I took the liberty to correct the spacing errors for readability] is erroneous when 'consciousness' is defined in the standard English or American dictionary sence. If you use it synonimously with some kind or deity (or IDer) please make that clear, so at least we communicate on equal terms. Or maybe you have yet another definition. If you think all things have consciousness, say, a grain of dust, a photon, toothbrush, whatever, please explain... I have no idea what your last sentence is supposed to mean. CC

CC,Consciousness is the primal mover in all existence,you are mistaken,no-thing,exists
without consciousness,energy exists,consciousness is energy!

regards michael.

[Lloyd Gillespie]

...and all energy is of fundamental photonic substance velocity mass motions...

CC is correct...

Lloyd

[austintorn@aol.com]

The capital letters were just for emphasis since I may have used the words in other ways also, but I suppose they were not necessary. I am am atheist. Religion has overloaded some of our words.

Consciousness is probably something like a higher area of the brain that Percival and makes sense of the remainder of the brain. You could say consciousness is a sixth sense.
While a lot of what the brains analyzes is unconscious or is mostly complete by the time it is revealed to consciousness, we still seem to have a kind of veto power over what it comes up with. (I guess I won’t really kill that bad driver.)

Since consciousness needs a brain and brains are made of matter through DNA and proteins, then most likely consciousness comes from matter in the right arrangement, but it is still interesting to say what consciousness seems like, for example, a subject to which experience happens to, for something may come out of it.

It’s hard to get a handle on consciousness, whereas something like DNA using matter to animate us seems clear because that’s all we seem to be made of.

As for saving the “soul”, this is just a halfway house for those having trouble going all the way to saying that our unique identity dies when we die, for an unperceiving soul identical to all others would be useless, and so the halfway house is built on the edge of a crumbling cliff.

If there is no creation out of absolutely nothing, then it seems that some kind of TOE must be the basis for existence—some eternal condition, substrate, stuff, arena, etc., albeit very low and simple and noncomposite.