[Fluent Piffle]

Closer! If you could just get this strange idea of 'cause' out of the way, i'm sure you would see the light!

An Infinite thing cannot be 'caused'. Infinite is also 'eternal', thus it has always been and always will be. IT IS WHAT EXISTS. And it can have no 'outside' to it.

I might suggest that it is the Human understanding of cosmological truth which is 'expanding', and not the Universe itself. Soon, we will see further, and invent another 'date' with which to describe the new observation. Add a few more zeroes, etc, etc, etc...

No description from the past has been 100% correct, otherwise we would not be arguing over it now. Some intuition has been close, and not much has been closer than Tao, imo, but science has been necessary to physically test that which we intuit. The moment someone posits a possibility, whatever it may be, a correct cosmological description is waiting to be found, and we will find it eventually, whatever it is. We cannot drag 'doctrines' from the past and expect them to still be relevant when the rest of existence is in a constant flux. With this in mind, any 'TOE' will have 'motion', perpetual change, as its prevalent property, or it will be invalid. 'Tao', at least, has this as a foundation, and is thus much closer to Cosmological Truth, as a description.

If you haven't read 'The Sleepwalkers' by Arthur Koestler, I can recommend it as a great introduction to the collective Human endeavour to KNOW. The 'next' step from this was probably Fritjof Capra's 'Tao of Physics', but another step has to be taken at this point. We are on a journey of becoming, and right now is actually an extremely interesting point in Human evolution. We are at a crossroads of understanding, about to take another 'giant leap', but it is a psychological one. The Earth we have evolved as a part of, is governed by 'laws' (properties) that are not physically apparent from the inside. Not until we have evolved far enough can we explore the Cosmological truth, as opposed to the Earthly truth. This is just another possibility, a possible Universal Action, not a 'given', because some 'omni-potent' thing has chosen us, the oh-so 'superior ones'. We should feel privileged and responsible, not flit between the 'superior/inferior' extremes because of our own Self-doubting!


pif.

[Profpat]

Hi PIF:

I am truly really superior. Not to any man, there I believe in equality.

But I am superior to a bird. I eat them, Yum Yum,
and if YOU want to be equated to a bird brain be my guest.

Best to all,

Pat

[Fluent Piffle]

Hi,

I'm not trying to be condescending here, profpat. When you die you will be eaten by worms, my friend, so which will be the 'superior' then?.

It's just Truth. I understand why people want to avoid it, but they never can. Not my fault, blame reality! Oh, you already do...silly me!


pif.

[Profpat]

I hope they have a feast on me PIF, and go yum yum after.

Best to you,

Pat

[N0B0DY]

John,

Like pif has pointed out, infinity - of which relativity is based - cannot be surpassed whereby the "one" or "none" is ever reached. What is considered absolute by science is fractional, between the one and none, and therefore I equate both as non-existent, not in the sense that they are opposites, but exactly the same. Similar to zero-point energy, which exists along both axes of the EM spectrum, but beyond to the point where both axes intersect.

I believe Einstein and Darwin were geniuses, if only for their developing theories based on evolution and relativity, because everything observed functions through relative changes and is ironically considered absolutely correct. Yet the whole is more than the sum of its relative parts, and the misunderstanding of the "one" lies, imo, from a neglect of the none which contains "everything" by default without requiring a literal container.

I liken it to the gateway to the Eden you mentioned, which is blocked by fire, and there is only two options to transcend this existence and return to Eden. One would be through the fire, and the other through negating the ego and merging with the omniverse or God.

[N0B0DY]

Pif,

Having studied infinity, like most folks at time or another in their lifetimes, I can relate to what you are referring to, and I have no problem accepting observable existence as a finite product of what can be infinitely extended. Yet, you seem to have glossed over, understandably, the imaginary divider I propose as being the prerequisite for physical laws and empirical evidence.

I won't say that you are being intentionally obtuse, but do you think it possible to have a sense of up or down, or right or left, without a dividing line? If you can concede that much, it should be fairly simple to extend that logic so that even if the relative separation can be reduced infinitely there would be no possibility of relative reality without a non-existent divider.

Then we can realize that the non-existent separator carries throughout any and all relative observations (reality), because there is no such thing as one center in an infinite universe, which renders existence as not being very existent after all.

Progressive evolution acquiring more and more knowledge to infinity will never be enough even after an eternity. Only absolute knowledge of all possible consequences can suffice to eradicate the innate madness of nature. We can ask who would we be if we weren't ourselves, if not the "omniverse" itself?

As an aside, pif, I had someone from another forum screaming at me for attempting to play mind games...hoping that all she held dear was not an illusion. Where I responded it is the subconscious mind that is playing conscious mind games, not me, but that ultimately what difference does it really make if sensory perception remains the same?

[N0B0DY]

RP,

To be and not to be, in order to be better?

[N0B0DY]

Pat,

You really didn't seem the type to have a superior attitude, but have you considered the possibility that the entire observable universe could be floating in the bloodstream of a superior being who would also be inferior to one infinitely more superior?

One of the most facinating comparative examples, imo, is the following:

"Looking closely for the first time at intact bacterial microcities, scientists are amazed to see them packed as tightly as our own urban centers, but with a decidedly futuristic look. Towers of spheres and cone- or mushroom-shaped skyscrapers soar 100 to 200 micrometers upward from a base of dense sticky sugars, other big molecules and water, all collectively produced by the bacterial inhabitants. In these cities, different strains of bacteria with different enzymes help each other exploit food supplies that no one strain can break down alone, and all of them together build the city's infrastructure. The cities are laced with intricate channels connecting the buildings to circulate water, nutrients, enzymes, oxygen and recyclable wastes. Their diverse inhabitants live in different microneighborhoods and glide, motor or swim along roadways and canals. The more food is available, the denser the populations become. Researcher Bill Keevil in England, making videos of these cityscapes, says of one, 'It looks like Manhattan when you fly over it.'

"Microbiologist Bill Costerton in Montana observes: "All of a sudden, instead of individual organisms, you have communication, cell cooperation, cell specialization, and a basic circulatory system, as in plants or animals.... It's a big intellectual break." Researchers are coming to see colonial bacteria or even all bacteria now as multicelled creatures despite their separate bodies.

"In addition to rearranging Earth's crust, creating an atmosphere, devising urban lifestyles and creating the first worldwide web, bacteria invented other amazing technologies. Some produced polyester, though biodegradable; others harnessed solar energy as photosynthesis, permitting the making of food when it became scarce; still others invented the electric motor for locomotion -- -a disk with flagellum attached, rotating in a magnetic field, complete with ball bearings, not to mention the atomic pile, probably to raise local temperatures. Seeing these startling parallels to human lifestyles and inventions makes us see evolution fractally. In fact, when I fly over human cities, making them appear small, I see them as cells spread over a substrate, or as bacterial colonies."

http://www.ratical.org/LifeWeb/Articles/capetown.html

[Fluent Piffle]

the innate madness of nature

Thanks for that. It explains much.

Man must demonize Nature in order to destroy it, just like he does with fellow man.

And now you have revealed your true agenda for a god-induced universe, the explanation sits even prettier.

I think you will find that virtually nobody, Nobody, ever 'studies infinity'. It is quite plain that you have little to offer on the subject, for instance. Not to worry, I hope you will enjoy studying further. I have decided (with the use of my FREE WILL) not to burn while Rome fiddles all around me...


pif.

[Profpat]

Hi Nobody,

"You really didn't seem the type to have a superior attitude, but have you considered the possibility that the entire observable universe could be floating in the bloodstream of a superior being who would also be inferior to one infinitely more superior?"

Again, I don't consider myself superior to any other human being, but I do believe since we are truly intelligent beings, we are superior to the other life forms. I know the Jains would disagree, but at least they have the intellectual honesty therefore, not to kill any insect, to cover your mouth with a veil so you don't swallow one, to wait for the fruit to fall from the trees before eating it, etc etc.

If a mosquito is in your house do you kill it?

Best to all,

Pat

P.S. My 2nd x-wife once called me an arrogant prick,
and I was so arrogant I took it as a compliment.