T.o.N. (Theory of Nothing)

[THoR]

[quote=Profpat;33623]

"Returning is the motion of the Tao; yielding is the way of the Tao; the ten thousand things are created from existence; existence is created from non existence." - Tao Te Ching

"Emptiness is form; form is emptiness." - Heart Sutra

Hi everyone;THoR you are back. I'm glad.

Nobody let me add my 2 cents regarding the Heart Sutra. Actually its Lao Tzu's 2 cents.

" With a wall all around
A clay bowl is molded;
But the use of the bowl
Will depend on the part
Of the bowl that is void.

Cut out the windows and doors
In the house you build;
But the use of the house
Will depend on the space
In the walls that is void "

And so I agree without emptiness there is no form and therefor of no use.
If you think about it, without emptiness you would have a 100# of clay

Best to all,

Pat

There is no such thing as emptiness. You may change the contents of the bowl from soup to space - but EVERYTHING is full of something (especially ME when I wax philosophique.)

[Profpat]

THoR;

I guess with that philosophy your glass will never be half empty and your gas tank will always be full.
Be careful with Sophism in the real world my friend or you might find yourself on a roadside waiting for AAA.

Best to you,

Pat

[N0B0DY]

Thor,

It may very well be that we are all full of BS, instead of FS (Fundamental Substance). The implications and interpretations of the Tao have perplexed minds for thousands of years, and to me the reason for it is found in separating existence and non existence.

It has been said that the Tao is beyond existence and non existence, because it is neither existent nor non-existent. It is absolutely non-existent, referred to as the void; and relatively existent, but referred to as an illusion.

Without motion it does not exist, and relative motion is illusory because the "substanceless substance" is said to be all-pervasive - carried throughout all motion - and is absolutely still. We can revert to the age-old proverb, "True stillness is stillness in motion." because it is directly related to the changeless reference frame that carries throughout all relative reference frames. As strange as it may seem, speaking in strictly literal terms, "things" consist of an infinite number of non-existent, non-dimensional points. So I agree that existence isn't derived from change, but that it isn't derived at all because there is no difference to an absolutely full something and absolutely nothing at all.

[N0B0DY]

Pat,

You're right on track with your latter comment whereby without emptiness there would be 100% clay. Some have said that there is no place that is empty, and that would mean that all places are completely full. As I mentioned to Thor, I equate that state of clay - or whatever - to non-existence because no motion anywhere equals the cessation of existence.

The verses you cited, imo, refer to the relative functioning of maya (illusion), based on the above-noted "fullness" being divided into an infinite number of refined states of universal substance.

We must ask ourselves though, if we seek the truth, can that absolutely full "substance" really be divided? I say that it can't, which renders all notions of separation incorrect.

[N0B0DY]

MJA,

I guess what they say about money is true...the root of all evil.

[N0B0DY]

Fredrick,

First, I would never laugh at your position or denigrate your interpretation and evidence. My relative motion is apparently abstract, and yours continues to imply a self-based literal motion. There is no "here" and "there" for there to be literal motion.

I had said that your pyramids and evidence can very well be applied to relativity, the way I define it, but I cannot just agree with you that it can be applied to my definition of absolute. Simply, there are no self-based things that are independent of other phenomena, and that is my argument with the scientific community claiming that certain things have intrinsic properties eventhough you can clearly prove otherwise with your evidence.

I had asked for a pyramid of space for the very reason that it would enable us to clearly see where we differ. Geoff Haselhurst comes closest to what I'm driving at because he uses references similar to the way I use them. At the beginning of the page at http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Philosophy-Taoism-Tao.htm there is made a reference to "without substance" - "There is a thing, formless yet complete. Before heaven and earth it existed. Without sound, without substance, it stands alone and unchanging. It is all-pervading and unfailing. We do not know its name, but we call it Tao. .. Being one with nature, the sage is in accord with the Tao." (Lao Tzu)

Eventhough Geoff proclaims the existence of one substance, namely "space," he refers to the above as philosophical support for his claims. So, eventhough contradictory, I can use your evidence as a relative means to an end, which I have done, but not to explain the absolute end which must come from an inner realization inexpressible through words and pictures.

You and Geoff equate the many and the one, but I equate the one and the none.

[austintorn@aol.com]

(Part 9)

Cloak and Dagger

The hoopla over the CBR trip had died down and the watchdogs had quickly and luckily lost interest, feeling that the ToeQuesters were a bunch of crackpots (crack and pot at the same time?).

ToeQuesters in the know soon received a certified package from Fed-Up (Fex-Ex and UPS had merged), containing a note, some pictures, an airline ticket to Los Angeles, and a DVD.

(Nobody’s New Secret Home)

The note read:

Dear Everyone Involved With My CBR Trip,

This note is written in disappearing ink (an old check writing trick used by Profpat), so please read immediately.

First of all, the topic of our TOE discovery is very serious, so there are no jokes; those were just to throw off the CIA and all the other acronyms.

I couldn’t reveal all at our last meeting since there were too many government snoops about. I thank you all for mixing in some silly questions with the serious ones, although I’m not sure which were which, and for sitting through the home movies, which I must now tell you were fake. I know the films were difficult to watch, but I needed your honest reactions. The government pretty much thinks we are all nuts and Star Trek fans. Thanks, also, for the misdirection of posting many weird and crazy theories about existence on ToeQuest. Which ones were they again?

We must be very suspicious of those who would be so low as to manipulate the reception of reality for their own amplitude and gain. By the way, I heard that many of you have altered your interference patterns to lose 20-30 pounds. Anyway, all of reality is at stake here and none but us can be trusted with the recent revelations. Just look at the cutthroat competition over discovering dark matter, even among reputable scientists. Many are spending millions and using deep mine shafts to avoid cosmic rays in order to try and detect one little measly weakly interacting massive particle (WIMP), the most promising efforts of which are occurring in the defunct Homestake gold mine in South Dakota, deeper than 6 Empire State Buildings, in which they have built a haystack and are looking for a needle in it. This is a small potatoe (and small fries) to what we have discovered about the CBR—the toe itself without the prefix pota-. You can thank Dan Quail for the spelling, not our trip.

So, anyway, the attention is off of us for now, and we have a clear channel; however, the government did a routine background check on me and discovered that I don’t exist, for I am Nobody. My past has no history and my future is a mystery. Nor do I have a presence in the present. They are as hot on my case as they would be for illegal aliens and have given me a past imperfect and have made my future tense.

Therefore, I have taken refuge in a certain uncharted mountain top retreat—where we will gather in a month to discuss the contents of the true CBR home movie tape that I’ve sent you all with your plane tickets.

Do not use your ToeQuest nickname while traveling, but employ your real name, if you can remember it, so that the spies will not catch on. I don’t know if you’ve ever watched the TV series, “Nowhere Man”, the greatest show ever made, but there are organizations out there, government and otherwise, that have super surveillance equipment, hence our remote and unknown meeting spot, which by the way, is still intact (it was a TOE research center back in the 70’s), with the addition of a few more tents and a CBR-powered microwave oven.

( Nowhere Man info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nowhere_Man_(TV_series) )

All incidental, intentional, and exceptional expenses will be reimbursed—because Profpat happened to take note of many government account numbers and passwords. He will be taking a penny (and any fractions thereof) out of each government account on a daily basis to fund our endeavors. This should not arouse any bankers unless a pretty wo/man is nearby. Who would have ever thought that accounting could be so useful and exciting!

That reminds me of a Profpat story: Upon receiving a useless check made with his vanishing ink, a big client insisted that Profpat write a new check with their own pen that they had brought along to outwit the Prof’s trickery; however, Prof saw them arriving and quickly wrote VOID on on blank with latent ink, an ink which would materialize on the check within a short while.

Our team is starting to rival the one in the “Ocean’s 13” movie and Brad Pitt has joined us to get away from his marriages.

At L.A., you will be whisked to a special charter jet that will take you to your final destination. After you land, a Hari-Krishna will give you a map at the airport. Look for the one with no hair—no, never mind; s/he will recognize you. Do not attend the feast that they will offer you, since it is only a few sprigs of parsley.

Although I cannot tell you where we are meeting, you will all have to rent motorcycles and endure an uphill climb up a mountain in first gear. Wear old shoes, a colorful tropical shirt, and some weird shorts—and try to act normal: to thy own selves please do not be true.

Now, the inevitable is that all governments of the world will accidentally wise up and realize that we have the TOE and so I am sending you all to your local ninja training school for a week of instruction before your “vacation”.

unsigned
nobody

P.S. Post any question about the expedition on ToeQuest…

“Shouldn’t we return Abraham Lincoln to his own time?” posted Mkirkpatrick.

“Not so fast; we’re thinking of running him against Hillary Clinton, for he is now the only honest politician on Earth.”

“Can I wear my new T-shirt about ‘The Theory of Thing’ that says ‘Forget Everything; There is Only One Thing: Energy’?” added Mkirkpatrick.

“That’s fine, but my none thing is no-thing.”

“Mine is food,” said Austin to Mkirkpatrick.

“My one thing is two parallel lines,” said MJA.

“Can I bring my lounge chair that is made of energy?” asked Mkirkpatrick.

“Yes, but why do you have so many questions?”

“I asked Austin for a bigger part,” Michael answered.

“Michael Kirkpatrick,” said Profpat, “I’ve been looking all over for that energy and here I am sitting on it!”

“Well, try not to let any escape,” said Graybeard.

“OK guys,” said Nobody, “Our synergy will produce all the energy we need.”

“Where’s the punch line?” asked Mkirkpatrick.

“The protection of the secret of reality is a serious undertaking, not a fun-eral,” answered Nobody. “Remember, the joke is over.”

“What about egg jokes?” asked ChickenMan.

“The yolk is on you!”

“Is there a void anywhere?” asked Fredrick.

“I would avoid a void like the plague since Nature abhors a vacuum and since no void has coughed up or voided anything but a whole lot of goose eggs.”

“What about the void that Profpat wrote on a check?” continued Fredrick.

“That was unavoidable.”

“How do I ride a motorcycle without falling over?” asked Rascal.

“I will give you one with gyroscopes front and back that look like wheels”

“But I live in Australia!” exclaimed Graybeard.

“My condolences.”

“Is this secret meeting place anything to do with Austin’s mountain top hideaway?” questioned Rascal.

“No.”

“Is your answer an untruth,” added Rascal, “for security purposes?”

“I ain’t not lying about nothing’ no way no how, or nothing exists,” unanswered Nobody.

“Meanwhile,” added Nobody, “we’re serving free lunches for everyone and giving away a lot of other stuff—for Profpat has been giving people a penny for their thoughts and then keeping the change when they put in their two cents worth.”

The true cosmic background radiation trip:

http://www.veoh.com/videos/v10011955XdHKwGt

[mkirkpatrick]

What can I say,cheers mate for "the bigger part"feel like a real actor now,or is that a ham-actor,as I am hogging the script?


warm regards michael.

[Profpat]

Austin you really are a creative genius.

Best,

Pat

[Fredrick]

It has been said that the Tao is beyond existence and non existence, because it is neither existent nor non-existent. It is absolutely non-existent, referred to as the void; and relatively existent, but referred to as an illusion.

Then there is no disagreement anymore, Nobody, just the matter of positions that remain the difference; differences remaining are based on word use, perspective and desire of understanding all, expressing it in ways we all agree.

Where the Tao tells me where to look and understand all, I know that my place is not with the Tao, cannot be with the Tao. That what once was, and what cannot be changed at all is the place of the Tao. The Tao has been set in stone (and of course this is not a contradiction), it is unchangeable for ever. Here, in our universe, we do not have the Tao.

What we can obtain is getting the perspective of the Tao. There is no problem there. And once you've seen it it is easy to place the Tao everywhere in our universe. It belongs with existence (it is written in stone), with non-existence (with the existence of the gods), with illusion (both of arching ideas and fantasy) and with reality (we cannot other than reflect our origin, but must do so with inclusion of the path that has lead us from the Tao to us).

The Tao is not understanding the nothing, the void, the nothingness. The Tao is understanding all by understanding the exact properties of the nothing, the void, the nothingness.

We do disagree on the aspect of our universe being self-based. I know it cannot be done without.

Thank you for a good struggle about nothing.