[dleviwing]

Lloyd;
I was told that “If you can’t convince them with facts, dazzle them with BS”. You are wasting your time with those who have already been dazzled to the state of belief by religious concepts of reality.

[Infinite Consciousness]

Originally Posted by dleviwing

"As long as mankind remains arrogant in believing his mind and consciousness is something special to the universe, he is doomed to travel the path of ignorance and eternally blinded to reality. The mind and consciousness are pure physical motions and interaction of matter. It is truly difficult for human beings to accept that they are no more important to the universe than a grain of sand on the beach."

Lloyd Gillespie,
will you please explain metaphysics and what is used in metaphysics to reach it's conclusions - are the conclusions reached in metaphysics derived from mind and it's thinking - are all metaphysical conclusions a product of mind and thought

Originally Posted by Lloyd Gillespie

" A resounding, No. Conclusions are always the comparisons of as many logic object entities as is possible to prove any result___that means science over all meta-sciences, even when trying to understand straight metaphysics, i.e., its lack of true science laws, replaced by metaphysics' meta-laws, bordering on isomorphisms and redundencies of.

"There is no proof possible, without crossing the quantum river, into real science laws. The two laws systems and principles of both don't, at all, correspond with each. Husserl showed that, and Charles Sanders Pierce was most the best of separating the realities, principles, and laws of each choice of thought - the physical and meta-physical.

The differences are profound. Freud also stated the opposite set of laws for psychology against physics, etc., which is most the same as the lose rules of any meta-science. It generally is interpreted as "from above", and science is generally interpreted as "from below", or no test-tube proof vs. test-tube proofs."

You have called metaphysics "insanity" and the cause of all of humanities problems - always has been - and always will be.

Originally Posted by Lloyd Gillespie

" As to its cultist religeous bent, words without test-tube proofs, promotes all insanities, including poverty, crime and war. Where have the meta-scientists been on these issues___out to lunch___fighting against the truest scientists on earth, simply because meta can't recognize true non-meta."

Well obviously we need to know the mechanics of metaphysics - i.e. how and what a metaphysician uses to reach their conclusions.

Originally Posted by Lloyd Gillespie

"I have seen it always as to lose a set of laws and principles___problem."

On the issue of free speech - where is free speech when dleviwing as a moderator deletes posts that he does not agree with - and where was your or any other materialists defense of free speech in that incidence ?

Originally Posted by Lloyd Gillespie

"He's deleted some of mine also. He has that right of free speech, as moderator. BTW, I'm not a materialist___I'm just a natural born logician... I come from a large family of highly educated logicians, etc., even both my mother and father..."

Lloyd Gillespie, Without all the smoke and mirrors and family history - can you please answer my questions - with a simple answer ?

(1) Are you saying that the conclusions arrived at through mind and thought and conscious choice of thought based on test tube proofs are true science ?

(2) Are you saying that the conclusions arrived at through consciousness independent of human mind and thought are metaphysical insanity i.e. illusions ?

(3) Are you aware that consciousness per se is an abstract i.e. non - object and cannot be understood or approached by anything but consciousness ? Only that which has been experienced in consciousness can be known to consciousness. This means that consciousness cannot be known by the human mind and it's thinking ?

(4) (1) Can you explain how consciousness is a pure physical motion and interaction of matter ? Your answer to this question. " Consciousness is bs, as studied by metaphysicians. Being conscious is science."

(5) You are saying that being conscious is science and yet to you consciousness is abstract or metaphysical i.e. not an object. How can a metaphysical non - object be true science ?

(6) Consciousness as an abstract non-object is metaphysics how can you use metaphysics to disprove metaphysics in light of your statement that "consciousness is Bs as studied by metaphysicians. If being conscious is science and consciousness is abstract metaphysics then obviously science is also metaphysics and you in fact are a metaphysician applying consciousness to arrive at your so called 'true science' conclusions.

[dleviwing]

IC;
Scientific thoughts and ideas produce scientific theories. They are called scientific due to the fact that they infer the ability to perform the science methodology of measurable testing. Metaphysics and religions only require belief in an idea that CANNOT be tested or proven.

If your ideas or thoughts produce a concept that can be tested with scientific methodology to determine its true or false status, then they are not metaphysics.

Can you suggest any scientific test method to verify your ideas? If not, then your ideas are nothing more than a worthless belief system.

Until you understand what is meant by scientific, do not make claims that you KNOW reality. So - what do you know and what do you believe?

[Infinite Consciousness]

Originally Posted by dleviwing;

IC;
Scientific thoughts and ideas produce scientific theories. They are called scientific due to the fact that they infer the ability to perform the science methodology of measurable testing. Metaphysics and religions only require belief in an idea that CANNOT be tested or proven.

If your ideas or thoughts produce a concept that can be tested with scientific methodology to determine its true or false status, then they are not metaphysics.

Can you suggest any scientific test method to verify your ideas? If not, then your ideas are nothing more than a worthless belief system.

Until you understand what is meant by scientific, do not make claims that you KNOW reality. So - what do you know and what do you believe?

Lloyd, dleviwing, and all other materialists,

Physics deals with mechanics, heat, light, sound, electricity, etc., they do not draw conclusions - they are only the means by which we consciously draw conclusions.

In trying to explain reality and knowledge - you are a metaphysician because metaphysics is the branch of philosophy that tries to explain reality and knowledge.

Metaphysics is any process of reasoning thought of as abstruse or extremely subtle. In trying to explain reality and "knowledge" based on physics you are a metaphysician. But in your explanations i.e. your attempt to explain reality you totally leave out information as knowledge. Because if there was knowledge that would imply Intelligent Design from an Intellegent Designer.

In drawing your conclusion that "Sorry there's no other reality --- physics is king --- eternally --- infinitely" ---, you used your consciousness and mind to make your choice of thought in trying to explain the nature of the universe or reality.

But according to your leader dleviwing, "As long as mankind remains arrogant in believing his mind and consciousness is something special to the universe, he is doomed to travel the path of ignorance and eternally blinded to reality."

Consciousness is an abstact non-object (which you deny) and yet you use it to prove that the objective universe is the only reality and consciousness is only a by-product of matter. But you are using that abstract non-object (i.e. consciousness) to prove that objects (the objective universe) is the only reality.

How can a non-object prove objects are the only reality ? You both are using the mind and consciousness to draw the conclusion that the mind and consciousness are nothing special and physics is the only reality and yet your conclusion is reached through your mind and it's thinking and through your consciousness which makes the choice of thought.

Whereas insanity is the loss of the ability to reason - that loss is obviously shown here in the failure to recognize the importance of consciousness in reaching illusory conclusions - which are illusory because they totally ignore the importance of consciousness.

PRAGMATISM,
The philosophy of pragmatism - created by the American psychologist William James - goes like this. "The mind is such that it deals only with ideas. It is not possible for the mind to relate to anything but ideas. Therefore, it is not correct to think that the mind actually can ponder reality. All that the mind can ponder is its ideas about reality. (WHETHER OR NOT THAT IS THE WAY REALITY ACTUALLY IS, IS A METAPHYSICAL ISSUE)."

Lloyd and dleviwing and all other materialists, do you understand that your conclusions about reality and your trying to explain the real nature of the universe is metaphysical for the simple reason that you are using consciousness which as an abstract - non-material - non-object - is metaphysics to reach and explain your conclusions ?

Whether or not that is the way reality actually is, is a metaphysical issue because you are using metaphysics to reach your conclusions and metaphysics to try and explain your conclusions. "WAKE UP."

In the realm of relativity (Physics) we cannot think, speak and act except by putting one thing in juxtaposition to another. This is the way to understand what is phenomenal.

In multiplicity, we are confronted at every step with complex jigsaw puzzles and have, therefore, to follow an analytical process of sorting out the component parts in each case, to name them individually and to put one in relation to the other, so as to comprehend something of it on the plane of the senses and intellect.

Thus by the very nature of things and by the nature of the cognizing faculties which nature has endowed us, we live by the knowledge of the parts only and never get a true picture of anything in its totality.

[Lloyd Gillespie]

IC, you make the same mistake as all meta-scientists. Your own ego is falsely attached to the dullusional consciousness metaphysics of a fallacious concept.

Below, you state WJ as the creator of pragmatism. He was not. His mentor was___one Charles Sanders Pierce, who clearly understood the differences in the rules of metaphyscis and physics, his true pragmatism and physics, logic, as verses the foolish psycho-logic ego of WJ. You'd better read the real creator of pragmatism, before shooting mouth off. I full well realize brain states can be analyzed as a metaphysics or a physics. It's a matter of choice___meta-physics contains far too many magic alligators to contribute much to the scientific swamp. Scientists try and drain the swamp, not fill it with magic. Logic, which I use, requires no such foolish nonsense as consciousness___it is a cognitive brain state of memory states, facts, information, quantum-bio-chemical processes, as such, which adrenaline is its prime proof of carrying quantum energies of information, thoughts, whatever. Any simple human is aware of our mental capacity information processing increases, in a state of adrenaline rushes___a purely physical action, and carrier of fear___the metaphysical momentary loss of logic state___as is all emotion___nothing more than the temporary, or permanent, loss of the highest emotion state of logic, containing compassion, empathy, love, and any other sensible emotion states of the quantum memory essence. It's only taken 10,000 years, by rote, to teach our memory states to store any amount of sensible facts, and much meta-foolishness.

You need a new meta-physics beyond that old chewed up garbage of the past, especially when you don't even know its true origins___of such a simple thing as pragmatism___which any good philosopher knows in nothing more than "Value for who?". A dead metaphysical subject over thirty years ago___Popper, Heideggar or one of them killed it___dead in its tracks, as any viable science/meta-science process, years ago.

Now, how about some real cognitive science? Logic states of emotion are produced by the brain's memory states in relation to the rules, laws and principles of physics observations, etc., not false consciousness states___where are they? Only in your dreams. The brain's complete quantum logic processes are still an incomplete scientific subject___the future is close to uncovering the exact process of memory storage___I believe the bio-physics lab, in Moscow is the most advanced, at least I like their depth of ideas best___check out a real brain state assessment, instead of empty and wrong theories...

Originally Posted by Infinite Consciousness

PRAGMATISM,
The philosophy of pragmatism - created by the American psychologist William James - goes like this. "The mind is such that it deals only with ideas.[what's he so stupid he didn't recognize direct cognitive sight?] It is not possible for the mind to relate to anything but ideas.[this bs has been disproved for over 150 years, by Hegel's contemporary, Feurabach] Therefore, it is not correct to think that the mind actually can ponder reality.[now ain't that stupid___the brain on adrenaline sure can, especially adrenalized logic and direct cognitive perception___Ocham] All that the mind can ponder is its ideas about reality. (WHETHER OR NOT THAT IS THE WAY REALITY ACTUALLY IS, IS A METAPHYSICAL ISSUE)." [As always, metaphysicians don't have any facts, so you just create and copy other's illusions, debunked for hundreds of years___read Geordano Bruno for starters, debunking most of Aristotle's and Plato's bs, along with others]

I'm sorry IC, you show me no new intelligence___just more of history's rote nonsense. If you were smart, you would recognize from all my posts, DLW is not my mentor, or whatever, I'm a lone low and high rad drifter... We've argued much...

"Meta-physics is just emotional intellect, inside itself, looking at itself, and can't see the forrest through the magic trees" me

[Infinite Consciousness]

dleviwing, L.G., and All Other Materialists,


MATERIALISM (1) PHILOSOPHY. the doctrine (i.e. the teaching or belief of a group of persons) that matter is the fundamental reality and that all thoughts, feeling, etc. can be explained in terms of physical laws.

MATERIALIST (1) A person who advocates (i.e. speaks in favor of ; recommends publicly ) materialism.

MATERIALIST RE the doctrine or belief advocated by materialists - "As long as mankind remains arrogant in believing his mind and consciousness is something special to the universe, he is doomed to travel the path of ignorance and eternally blinded to reality.

MATERIALISM How does the materialist determine the true or false status of materialism as a true science advocating a doctrine or belief system ?

(A) Scientific thoughts and ideas produce scientific theories. They are called scientific due to the fact that
they infer the ability to perform the science methodology of measurable testing.

(B) Metaphysics and religion only require belief in an idea that cannot be tested or proven.


(C) If your ideas or thoughts produce a concept (in this case materialism) that can be tested with scientific
methodology ( and is tested with scientific methodology ) to determine its true or false status, then they
are not metaphysics. They are true science.

In response,

Whereas the materialists has not applied the scientific methodology of measurable testing in (A) (which
he bases his true science on) to the mind and consciousness embedded in and manifesting through matter
consequently his / her attempt to explain the nature or reality of the universe is the metaphysics of (B) The
mind and consciousness that are advocating this belief or doctrine have not been tested to determine their
true or false status.

If the Materialists ideas, thoughts, mind and consciousness, that produced the concept of materialism are not
tested with scientific methodology to determine their true or false status, then they are not true science as the tests
required by materialists to be real science - have not been performed - they are only metaphysics - a belief
system or doctrine that has not been tested or proven.

The qualities of the mind used to determine the true or false status of materialism are - lust - anger - greed -
attachment - and ego - i.e. the "Law of the Jungle." Wherein life eats life and selfishness rules. We call this
evolution ? Our 8 % human consciousness functioning through the mind and its thinking is functioning as discrete
chunks of quanta or particles and waves it can only know parts it can never get a true picture of anything in its
totality. It is only in freeing consciousness from its identifying with matter that we experience reality as a totality.

The qualities of Infinite Consciousness freed from the chemical stupor created by the mind and its thinking are
Unlimited Wisdom - Immortality - Unconditional Love - Fearlessness - Connectedness - and Bliss i.e. the Peace
that Passeth All Understanding. But the materialist will only know and experience this when their consciousness
is freed from its imprisonment in matter (the physical-material body) and rises above that body. Only that which
has been experienced in our consciousness can be known to consciousness and it can only be known to us as
individuals. Esoteric knowledge must be won by each for himself. Only consciousness can experience Infinite
Consciousness.

Dleviwing, you asked me if i can suggest any scientific test method to verify my ideas - well first let me assure you
that i am not presenting ideas - i have used a precise meditation (concentration) method to free my consciousness
from the body and have not only risen above body consciousness but continue to do so present time. The
meditation technique is the one taught by Spiritual Masters such as - Kabir - Nanak - Mualana Rumi etc. and is
presented here under ' no man is an island - get connected.' Until the Materialist applies this meditation as the
scientific methodology that it is to determine the true or false status of his mind influencing his consciousness and
using that untested mind and consciousness to advocate his theory of materialism - he is a metaphysician using
metaphysics to promote an untested - unproven - belief system.

By the way the onus is on the materialist to prove their doctrine - and in not applying a scientific methodology to
test the mind and consciousness to determine their true or false status - they violate their own requirement for
determining what they call true science. Their metaphysics or materialism is only a belief system or doctrine that
has not been tested or proven.

And, by the way Quantum Physics has established that when matter is broken into its minutest form there are
light & sound waves at the heart of all atomic particles. Thus, what we take to be solid is nothing more than
waves manifesting information. The in-formation of thought. The universe that we as the participator of quantum
physics bring into being is the manifested thought of our Infinite Consciousness.

[dleviwing]

Originally Posted by Infinite Consciousness

Dleviwing, you asked me if i can suggest any scientific test method to verify my ideas - well first let me assure you that I am not presenting ideas - I have used a precise meditation (concentration) method to free my consciousness from the body and have not only risen above body consciousness but continue to do so present time. The meditation technique is the one taught by Spiritual Masters such as - Kabir - Nanak - Mualana Rumi etc. and is presented here under ' no man is an island - get connected.' Until the Materialist applies this meditation as the scientific methodology that it is to determine the true or false status of his mind influencing his consciousness and using that untested mind and consciousness to advocate his theory of materialism - he is a metaphysician using metaphysics to promote an untested - unproven - belief system.

IC;
There are several methods to induce mental alterations of the human brain. The stresses caused by day to day life can cause people to have alterations of thinking that can be beneficial and detrimental. Those who survive mental breakdowns often refer to this drastic change in there thinking as a spiritual experience. I can assure you that it is a fundamental defense mechanism of the brain. Those who induce this response of the brain either by chemical or as you do with concentration (self hypnosis), are producing an artificial reality in your brains. There are many con artist that know this and use it to manipulate the masses of people – Religions being the major player in this scenario – It’s called “Born Again”. Unfortunately even well educated intelligent people have fallen pray to these so-called philosophies. If your belief of a spiritual existence make your life more tolerable, I am happy for you but, don’t spread your gospel as being science or a solution to a TOE.

[Infinite Consciousness]

Dleviwing your comments are empty how about applying the scientific methology ( that you demand of others ) by stilling your consciousness to determine the true or false status of your mind and consciousness and then your comments may carry some weight - until then you are nothing but a metaphysician advocating the metaphysicss of materialism which is an untested and unproven belief system.

What you advocate is not what you call true science it is metaphysics and you know this as well as i do. Materialism is false and you know it that is why you are not debating the proofs in my post you do not want to be seen for the fool that you, L.G., and all materialists are. Wake Up !

Are you so blinded to reality that you cannot see the falseness of your doctrine i.e. you do not even practice the very scientific methodology to test the truth or falseness of your doctrine and yet demand that test of everyone else - and when others test it you have the gall to claim it is fraudulent. How the hell would you know if you have not tested it yourself.

You and your spokesperson L.G. are frauds and any one with any intelligence that is not biased in favor of materialism can see it. How will anyone ever find or present a T.O.E. if you as a moderator and a materialist delete their posts ? Is the real purpose of these forums a quest for a T.O.E. or to prevent - a T.O.E. - that destroys materialisn - from coming out ?

[dleviwing]

IC;
I hope that you are still a young man in your 20’s. If so, you are going through the stupidity phase of your growing-up. Both Lloyd and myself have been there and done that, so your ignorance is understandable to us. If you remain in that phase into your latter life, you will end up like Mkirkpatrick – old and ignorant.

[mkirkpatrick]

Thanks for the positive vote of confidence Dave,I heard a rumour that you were
going to be deleted as the moderator for this forum!What shame that would be
aye David?

btw please check your bloodpressure it is important you know/

God bless you Dave,peace be unto you my brother.

warm regards michael.