[Planet_Bob]

Originally Posted by Lloyd Gillespie Now we're getting somewhere___Let's boil all three of our ideas out...

Lloyd,

the quote at the end of my previous post was not aimed directly at yourself and David, although it does fit perfectly.

The Theory of Everything is :- Conflicts will exist wherever there are differences until they are resolved.

Taking two bits of Fundemental Substance. the differences between them in size, angular momentum, etc is what will determine how they react to each other. If the two bits were identical in every way, then there would be no reaction, there would be no conflict.

Philosophy, economics, politics, physics. Pick any arena you want and the primary reason for any movement is because of differences.

Voltage is measured as the difference between two points. No difference, no voltage.

There are always two sides to an argument.

If there weren't, there wouldn't be a reason to argue. Again, differences.
Once whatever differences that started the argument are resolved, there is no longer an argument.

Catch 22

Anybody who agrees with this being the Theory of Everything, good.
Anybody who thinks differently and disagrees with it merely shows that it is fact the Theory of Everything.

PB.

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Originally Posted by Planet_Bob As being the basis for everything in the Universe there is one small flaw. The most basic particle/wave/entity, call it what you will, is the photon. It has no charge. For there to be a charge associated with a photon, you need quite a few of them comprising a system. Charge is a property of that system. Hydrodynamics is the ideal way to study the movements and flows within the FS, but is a step, albeit a small one, away from explaining why. Hydrodynamics does show you how two fluid systems can repel each other providing a mechanism to explain expansion without the need for anti-gravitons or dark matter. Electrodynamics and Hydrodynamics are too specific. The reason for motion is entropy. Definition : The tendency for all matter and energy in the universe to evolve toward a state of inert uniformity.

Hi PB, after studying the model I've been working on, I realized photons, being the most fundamental of substances we know exist, would also exist as the primordial wave/particle/entity of fundamental substance, even before first star, big-bang, or however you want universal evolution to be modeled. This can be seen if we just use a static motion model of the fundamental substance, and slowly set it in motion. IMO, the only scientific source of force for first motion is temperature, and since temperature of the primordial substance would be near absolute zero, the scientific property of such temperature is hydrodynamic, i.e., imploding motion, compression. In order for first substance to hydrodynamically move within itself, it must emit friction as motion heat waves, though very low, and also the sound waves of this motion. IMO, these primordial waves would have to be photons, even though they may be in very low wave amplitude, still photonic waves. So, your photon TOE fits all the way back into my primordial hydrodynamic model. So this makes since to what you expressed above, I view the absolute fundamental substance as a non-viscous fluidic substance, everywhere, so I can use hydrodynamics to study it, since, as you said, electrodynamics is incapable of describing either photon action, or primordial substance action___and I agree.

You stated,

"Hydrodynamics is the ideal way to study the movements and flows within the FS, but is a step, albeit a small one, away from explaining why."

The reason why is that in order to study fundamental substance scientifically, it must be converted to fluid dynamics, since no other scientific study is capable of the mechanical study required, of the sub-quantum properties of photons, or FS. And also, since electrodynamics or other classical mechanics can only be used correspondingly, hydrodynamics is easier. And finally when dealing with first source, of first motion, no other mechanics is possible___period. I'll show why in the next paragraph...

As you stated,

"Electrodynamics and Hydrodynamics are too specific. The reason for motion is entropy. Definition : The tendency for all matter and energy in the universe to evolve toward a state of inert uniformity."

Now, to this I'd have to ask you what is the source of force for entropy? And also, what type of inert uniformity?___low entropy?___low velocity? If this answer is yes, I agree. As to the first question, source of force, I see only thermo-hydro-dynamics, as the required scientific source of force, or the prime mover of FS. Do you have another fundamental source of fundamental force, since entropy is the secondary action of its thermodynamic fundamental force, and can be of either cold or hot temps...? Of course, primordial would be of nearest 0K cold...

I agree with you, photons are everywhere, and are the absolute fundamental substance, in all its changing state wave dimensions. I also see them inside and out of all larger wave/particles, electrons, protons, neutrons, neutrinos, etc. To me, they seem to exist in the same number of states they did from primordial times, long before any first stars, galaxies, etc. Of course, this is just conjectured logic, but the evidence correspondence seems overwhelming, i.e., the tightening structures of alloys, advances in the nano areas, and lasers able to cut diamonds, like razors through warm butter___with high energy photons? The power of the simple photon is simply amazing...

Lloyd

p.s.
I'm looking at the hydrodynamics inside an electron, as in correspondence with the experimental physics of ion gasses at low and high temperatures. I think Hau's experiment has much to offer in this area, and could explain a lot of the vibrations, wave frequencies and cycles, inside matter. The way I see it is just about as you have stated, the electron takes on photons, as lower temperature entities, and the differences of hydrodynamic compression, and the electrons higher temperature and spin, heats up these internal photons, forcing them to emit radiation as excess heat___this also explains the change of electron orbits. I think that's something like what you said in an earlier post. If it isn't, you'll have to correct me... This would also be what makes the cesium atom so accurate for clock use... I think this hydrodynamic photonic wave action is continually, and constantly, entering the electrodynamic finite universe, from the infinite hydrodynamic void, and being emitted as excess radiation heat waves, back into the infinite void___of course, after enough time...

[Dr. Waldrope]

(possibly a meta-photon?)

Told ya... or something like that.
meta-photon in superposition
dr.w

[Planet_Bob]

Originally Posted by Lloyd Gillespie Now, to this I'd have to ask you what is the source of force for entropy? And also, what type of inert uniformity?___low entropy?___low velocity?

Hi Lloyd,
the source of the force, IMO, is based around the second law of thermodynamics; appropriate as that's the one which stipulates about entropy. The fundemental rule is that cold things cannot transfer energy to hot things. So whenever you have a difference, in this case thermal, the rules of engagement are already fixed.

More will always move towards less and never the other way round.

As to the uniformity that the FS is after, only when the entire FS is uniform will all conflicts end.

The only way I can see this happening is if every photon in the Universe was exactly the same size, travelling in exactly the same direction, effectively every photon, in relation to every other photon, would be stationary.

I think that what ever the initial difference was that brought our Universe into existance started something that can never be stopped. The creation of the Universe can never be undone.

Originally Posted by Lloyd Gillespie Do you have another fundamental source of fundamental force, since entropy is the secondary action of its thermodynamic fundamental force, and can be of either cold or hot temps...? Of course, primordial would be of nearest 0K cold...

Thermodynamics deals with heat and heat is transmitted by, you guessed it, photons. Anything giving off heat is emitting photons and fluctuations in heat are differences in photons.
Thermodynamics is similar to hydrodynamics in that it is one step above the FS.

Originally Posted by Lloyd Gillespie I agree with you, photons are everywhere, and are the absolute fundamental substance, in all its changing state wave dimensions.

Everything builds from them and everything decays fown into them. It would appear that this fact is being lost on all the bits in the middle.

Originally Posted by Lloyd Gillespie The way I see it is just about as you have stated, the electron takes on photons, as lower temperature entities, and the differences of hydrodynamic compression, and the electrons higher temperature and spin, heats up these internal photons, forcing them to emit radiation as excess heat___this also explains the change of electron orbits.

To heat something up you need to apply more energy, that energy is in the form of photons. You can't heat up photons, the photons merely add to the overall energy of the electron causing a change in its characteristics. To change back it must get rid of the additional energy, which it does by emitting a photon.

PB.

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Originally Posted by Planet_Bob Hi Lloyd, the source of the force, IMO, is based around the second law of thermodynamics; appropriate as that's the one which stipulates about entropy. The fundemental rule is that cold things cannot transfer energy to hot things. So whenever you have a difference, in this case thermal, the rules of engagement are already fixed.

Steven, I agree it's all based around the second law of thermodynamics, and I agree that cold things cannot transfer energy to hot things, but there's nothing in the second law of thermodynamics, preventing hydrodynamic compression of initial photons into heat, and hydrogolic ignition, as of a first star___we see it happening all the time in cosmology. This would not be transferring heat, it would be creating heat from initial FS /photon friction, of self-thermo-hydrodynamic motion.

More will always move towards less and never the other way round.

When were dealing with FS, were not talking about more moving towards less___were talking about the whole moving within itself, from itself, and back into itself___the equilibriated whole universal motions. So, there's no such thing as moving the other way___this is where it's rather hard to see the overall thermo-hydrodynamic actions, yet I've been separating these fundamental motions into their individual constituents for some twenty-five years, and I see it's overall equilibriating dynamics quite easily, and still well within all the laws of thermodynamics and physics.

As to the uniformity that the FS is after, only when the entire FS is uniform will all conflicts end.

I agree, and I'd call it thermally equilibriated hydrodynamic substance motion___but does such a state ever evolve, when the hydrodynamic photon field is imploding/contracting and the hydro-electro-dynamic field is exploding/inflating? I suppose the perfect equilibrium state is achieved, only at the turnover of the universal cycle, at the next finite cycle's start, and this finite cycle's end.

The only way I can see this happening is if every photon in the Universe was exactly the same size, travelling in exactly the same direction, effectively every photon, in relation to every other photon, would be stationary.

This isn't possible, to have any motion___one aspect of the photon field must be stationary, yes, but photons must be free to be moved by all wave and atomic structures, in order for them to take on photon mass, as they move through the photon field. Just as a laser moves photons fast enough to cut diamonds, as easy as a razor through warm butter. And we have Hau's experiment showing photons moved by and compressed by super-cooled hydrodynamic low temperature physics. Every photon in the universe could not be the same size, because we must have all space filled, even in the photon fields inside all atomic structures___the only way to fill this space, completely, is to have photons of all sizes, all the way down to the infinitesimal photons, just as beryllium tightens up the molecular structure of copper, so that a #24 wire is stiff as a sword, and one can take a six foot piece, and easily push it straight through a living person, without the person, hardly feeling it. All smaller atoms tighten the molecular structure of other atoms___and there's no reason to think photons would not do this at the sub-atomic level. If they be round, they must exist down to the infinitesimal size to fill this bill.

I think that what ever the initial difference was that brought our Universe into existance started something that can never be stopped. The creation of the Universe can never be undone.

The only creation I believe is the creation of no creation___it's always existed___I only use stationary motion models to get my head around the required motions of FS. IMO, it's an eternally moving FS.

Thermodynamics deals with heat and heat is transmitted by, you guessed it, photons. Anything giving off heat is emitting photons and fluctuations in heat are differences in photons. Thermodynamics is similar to hydrodynamics in that it is one step above the FS.

IMO, thermodynamic, hydrodynamic, hydrogolic motions absolutely must be a property of PFS/Photonic Fundamental Substance, or there's no motion possible___an inert universe___impossible.

Everything builds from them and everything decays down into them. It would appear that this fact is being lost on all the bits in the middle.

I agree completely___the physics community can't see the trees, for the forest. There's a lot of wasted word spray, over the last hundred years.

To heat something up you need to apply more energy, that energy is in the form of photons. You can't heat up photons, the photons merely add to the overall energy of the electron causing a change in its characteristics. To change back it must get rid of the additional energy, which it does by emitting a photon.

This I can not agree with. Photons must be the one fundamental substance entity, that can be both heated and cooled, otherwise, what in the entire universe changes temperature___to the drastic degrees required to represent all the universe's vast thermal variations? Look at the temperature change increases in directed energy weapons, lasers to survey with, verses, lasers to cut diamonds___we know photons move and drastically change temperatures___this is scientific fact. And further, Hau's experiments show photons can be super-cooled and compressed, just as most any gas can be___there's no tricks here___this is just factual science...

PB.[/quote]

Lloyd

p.s.
Steven, try to see a little deeper into what I've just said. If you can see photons do change temperatures, then we can explain the hydrodynamic mass actions of all quantum and sub-quantum fields. I'm referring to the hydrodynamic mass increase of all quantum molecular field masses, and all sub-quantum photonic field masses. If you can see a photon field, of millions of photons, inside an electron, then you will see the photon structure the way I do... I can only see all the field mechanics working, if photons are allowed to be all sizes, and all temperatures, and also existing in stationary, as well as moving states, even if they must hitch-hike on atomic and molecular structures.[BTW, we already know photons come in many, many, varrying sizes, from radio waves to gamma rays.] Certainly, you'd have to agree that photons in the center of stars are hotter than photons in the air we breath? The hydrodynamics in stars even fuses photons. I see the hydrodynamics of electrons, as just a smaller version of a star, but it seems to blink on and off, instead of shine steady. I also see two aether fields, one within the other___the em aether field exists within and without the photon aether field. The photon aether field is still imploding/contracting, while the em aether field explodes/inflates... At this stage in our evolution, the em field has more power, but at maybe 10^137 years hence, the photon aether field will hold the power, once again, to start another round of universal evolution...

Dr. W., I'll get to the possible infinite eternal meta-photon singularity later...

[Planet_Bob]

Lloyd,
We're both agreed that the FS is comprised entirely of what we call photons. The photon is the name given to the most basic form of energy known.

hydrodynamic compression of initial photons into heat

Heat is a form of energy, energy which is transmitted in the form of photons. You can't make a photon into heat because it is already heat. Energy cannot be created or destroyed. When you compress the FS what you get is compressed FS. The photons would be in closer proximatey to each other and as a consequence the way each photon reacts to those around it may change, but the energy comprising the compressed FS is still just energy.

If the compressed FS radiates energy then you may look at it as heat, but it's still just a bunch of photons.

This is where using the terms thermodynamic and hydrodynamic is suitable for a macro level examination of the FS, but right down at the most basic level it's too complex.

At the most basic level all that's going on is a little energy on energy action. You can call it heat, light, magnetic field, whatever you want, but it is still only energy.

Photons must be the one fundamental substance entity, that can be both heated and cooled,

They can't.
Look up infrared.
It's light that can be detected optically as in thermal cameras to detect body heat, it's also heat which can be used to cook things.

One photon, so many uses.

Hau's experiments show photons can be super-cooled

Hau's experiment did not show any photons being super-cooled. She showed a gas cloud being super-cooled and then photons being shot into it. The observed properties of the photons was altered by the super-cooled cloud, but the photons themselves were emitted from a laser.

The compression of a gas cloud into a proto star does not generate heat as a direct result of the compression, but as a result of the speed and interaction of the particles rotating within it. The rotating particles react with each other stripping away photons which then appear as heat. The compression merely increases the speed and number of these reactions resulting in more photons being stripped away and seen as a rise in temperature. Get it hot enough and dense enough and you have yourself a star.

PB.

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Originally Posted by Planet_Bob Lloyd, We're both agreed that the FS is comprised entirely of what we call photons. The photon is the name given to the most basic form of energy known.

You see PB, here's where we have a small difference, I certainly agree FS can and is entirely comprised of photons, or in its most primal state was one entire photonic singularity, but not of the infinitesimal type, but of the infinite void size. Now, as to photon as energy, yes, it's how we measure energy, but all energy is the basic FS in velocity changed state conditions___at base, all there is, is photonic substance, and a fundamental energy to move the fundamental substance, which must be thermal, as it's all there is at the most fundamental level. I think in order to understand our differences, it will be easier to state a simple dynamics of the model I'm working with. I think this thread is well worth continueing, as we are both stabbing at the fundamental processes. I'll bring the universal dynamics down to a classical mechanics at the electron/photon level, but first I'd like to state something about fundamental wave dynamics.

The trouble I see with all classicists, physicists, cosmologists, hydrodynamicists, quantumists, and relativists is trying to see a dynamic universal process with a one dimensional view of wave mechanics, and by one dimensional, I simply mean as a single model view of wave mechanics. To me, the universe is a 3 stage process of wave mechanics; 1.Pre 1st star; 2.Within 1st star; and 3.Post 1st star. I don't believe one single model view of wave mechanics is capable of capturing this dynamic process. Most all of the last hundred years of physics deals only with stages 2. and 3. They all ignore stage 1., and IMO, to their peril, but like I said, let me bring it down to the simple electron model, I see.

Since we both agree it's a FS photonic universe, let the basic aether field be filled with stationary photons___size doesn't matter for this simple model. Now strip your mind of other wave interactions for simplicity's sake. Picture an electron traveling straight through the FS photon sea___any wave/particle traveling through such a sea must increase in mass as it approaches true c. Where does the mass increase come from? The electron must gain photons as mass increase___there's no other source. Velocity and density of the FS photon field require this. Velocity also creates heat. What is being heated, since the electron is also made of photons? The only possible answer is photons___simple logic. Now, what is truly happening inside the electron as it increases photon mass and heat? The electron is acting first as a condensor storage magnetic moment capacitor, then as a radiating generator of electricity moments. What is making up this process? Photons___plain and simple. This all is happening at the speed of light___mass is increasing creating the magnetic moment of the em wave, and then critical mass entropy is reached and the electron radiates/generates its electric moment. This is all photon on photin action, and is the same for all frequencies of light and waves. It's just faster for faster waves, such as gamma rays, and slower for micro-waves. They all must increase in mass proportional to true velocity. We just have trouble distinguishing between true c and sub-c velocities. Nature does it quite easily___just imagine how many entropy cycles in a gamma ray traveling only a short distance. The electron, we seem to know more about, thanks to Maxwell and others, is still frequencies of mass entropy cycles, and the attendent velocities, that create the varrying heats of photons contained and radiated as the heat of mass velocities. I can't imagine why you still think photons don't change temperature, when all is of photons...?

Heat is a form of energy, energy which is transmitted in the form of photons. You can't make a photon into heat because it is already heat. Energy cannot be created or destroyed. When you compress the FS what you get is compressed FS. The photons would be in closer proximatey to each other and as a consequence the way each photon reacts to those around it may change, but the energy comprising the compressed FS is still just energy.

Agreed heat is energy, but one must realize all is real FS photons in motion___even the energy you speak of, and all heat is from the velocity masses described above, creating the heat of the entire photonic/matter/mass/energy entities___If there be nothing but photons, some photons must be heated, as all matter/energy is of a photonic nature. One doesn't make a photon into heat___velocity mass heats it, hotter than its true ground state. No energy is created or destroyed___annialation is impossible___all is conserved. In a later post I will address the FS wave mechanics differences to secondary wave actions___for now, let's stick with a FS photon field, in the universe that's been known for the last 100 years... Just be aware, that in order for energy to be real, it must be made of PFS___always___there's no free lunch.

If the compressed FS radiates energy then you may look at it as heat, but it's still just a bunch of photons.

Agreed, as photons are in infinite supply, from the initial immense photonic singularity.

This is where using the terms thermodynamic and hydrodynamic is suitable for a macro level examination of the FS, but right down at the most basic level it's too complex.

That's why I've switched to a classical photonic mass entropy velocities and its resulting heat and sound waves. The magnetic moment of the electron, or any fundamental particle/wave you choose, would attract on one tick and repel on the next tick, as it moves from mass increase, to critical mass entropy, and electric radiation. Electrons in proximity would be quite a show, if we could reduce our size enough to view it. Think of the linear velocities, angular momentums, and spin velocities, as millions of photons are being drawn in and radiated out___as you can tell, I don't think much of present electrodynamic theories. The magnetic mass moment and electric critical mass moment generator of electrons makes much more sense to me___as I know anything moving at the speed of light, must increase real mass___the only way possible is to take on FS photons___don't you think?

At the most basic level all that's going on is a little energy on energy action. You can call it heat, light, magnetic field, whatever you want, but it is still only energy.

As I stated above, energy is always real fundamental, on up, photon on photon action___it takes real substance to produce energy___first and foremost. Energy isn't magic___from nothing___it comes from something___PFS.{photonic fundamental substance}

They can't. Look up infrared. It's light that can be detected optically as in thermal cameras to detect body heat, it's also heat which can be used to cook things.

Different frequencies of heat can manipulate other frequencies of heat___just think of a nuclear bomb further heating all the heat of a large city___heat dynamics is capable of many frequency on frequency changes and motions. Look at us, we see fire with fire, if you will as to your hot photons, and yet know it's hotter than our photons of life fires.

One photon, so many uses.

Couldn't agree more...

Hau's experiment did not show any photons being super-cooled. She showed a gas cloud being super-cooled and then photons being shot into it. The observed properties of the photons was altered by the super-cooled cloud, but the photons themselves were emitted from a laser.

I thought that at first too, until I realized, from my studies of low temperature physics, there's no way to enter the laser light into the super-cooled chamber, except that it super-cools the photon light entering the chamber. You can't super-cool clouds, except in a closed magnetic field super-cold chamber, and at a billion'th of a degree above absolute, that's a very tight and heavy chamber, and a very low wattage laser would have been used, not to blow the matter cloud away, so the photons would have certainly been quickly super-cooled, and compressed.

The compression of a gas cloud into a proto star does not generate heat as a direct result of the compression, but as a result of the speed and interaction of the particles rotating within it. The rotating particles react with each other stripping away photons which then appear as heat. The compression merely increases the speed and number of these reactions resulting in more photons being stripped away and seen as a rise in temperature. Get it hot enough and dense enough and you have yourself a star. PB

I would just have one question to ask___do electrons, protons, neutrons, neutrinos and positrons, shrink and expand due to thermal changes___or does the FS photonic space between the particle/waves shrink and expand? Since it's all photonic FS, I can only see photonic space shrinking and expanding, with thermal changes, and remember, diesel engines start from dead cold temps in Northern Alaska___a sort of hydrodynamic/hydrogolic ignition___from cold to hot. I think cold and hot entropy cycles, deserve much more attention. One should realize the universe is primarily a dual entropy cycle, containing an infinite number of smaller entropy cycles; 1.From 1st PFS uniformity to the chaotic 1st star formation; and 2.From the chaotics of 1st star, back to the 1st PFS uniformity___again, and again. That is two entropy cycles, in one universal cycle, not one, as is falsely thought___from cold to hot___and from hot to cold. It's just physics has only studied the hot to cold cycle, so it thinks that's all there is___wrong!!! Ol' man Diesel works just as well for a universe, as for a diesel engine in Northern Alaska. None of the above is in any disagreement with the basic laws of thermodynamics and any other physics___absolute symmetry holds___everywhere...

Next adventure___Classical 1st stage fundamental photonic substance wave mechanics___No...?

Let's work out our differences, Steven, I think this thread will go somewhere. You have greatly helped put me on the right fundamental footing___I thank you...

Lloyd

[Planet_Bob]

Lloyd,

There is so much that I don't agree with, and all of it stems from your view that the FS is somehow effected by thermal energy.

At the level of the Fundemental Substance, all problems are barely above being TRUE or FALSE, if at all.

all there is, is photonic substance, and a fundamental energy to move the fundamental substance, which must be thermal,

Just because there is a potential difference between two distinct parts of the FS, does not mean it has to be thermal.
What is thermal anyway, except a difference in energy levels. Yes the energy is the FS, but it doesn't have to thermal.

One of the main aspects of any Fundemental Substance from which the whole Universe is created is that it must be completely self contained. There can be no additional bits required to get it to work.

The underlying principle of the FS and the manner in which it is able to manifest itself as our Universe comes down to the Permeability and Permittivity of the FS. How much you have and how much you're trying to shove through it.
It is changes in these properties that is what moves the FS. It is dynamic, self regulating, but does not include any thermal factors.

As for Hau's experiment, if the super-cooled cloud caused the photon to be super-cooled then it would have broken the second law of thermal dynamics. It didn't. The photon was directly effected by the behaviour of the cloud, and as a result hung around a bit longer than it normally would.

You need to get away from the idea of thermal. Thermal is a macro property and is detected through the increased or decreased behaviour of complex particles. The more they vibrate, there more energy they give off in the form of heat. Photons do not vibrate.

PB.

PS
As for diesel. now you really are mixing apples and oranges and throwing in the occassional kiwi fruit.
What happens to diesel is a chemical reaction. The fact that when you compress it, you get heat is down to the proximatey of the particles and their increased velocity which generates the heat and ignites the fuel.
Don't think for one minute that it's photons being compressed.

[Lloyd Gillespie]

PB, you're talking right by everything said. I didn't say photons vibrated. I am not the only one continually referring to thermal___you are also, by continually quoting the second law of thermodynamics, and the other two are also thermal___it's what the universe is founded on___and even Einstein said it was all thermodynamics. So, unless you have another formula for what photons are, if not the fundamental cold substance, then what in the universe is COLD? You see, if everyone continues to not see what is glaringly obvious, there'll never be agreement, even at the fundamental level. And to a third point, cold to hot, and back to cold, does not violate any 2nd law___we heat things up, and they cool off all the time. Our own star was once hotter than it is now, and will become much cooler, in the future. The big-bang was sure hotter when it exploded, than now, cause it don't exist___it's been replaced by cold photons___at least, somebody told me the universe, in space, was cold.

edit addition: Here's an excellent link showing a suprathermal photon tail of high velocity electrons in a cyclotronic Tokamak; http://crppwww.epfl.ch/conferences/EPS99/p3_039.pdf Just as I showed, in the last post, and in this one below.

Now, as to photons not changing temperature or expanding and contracting___then what in hell does contract, when hydrogen, LNG, or hellium are super-cooled___the electrons, protons, neutrons, etc.?___I don't think so___that's impossible___so, the only thing left is the absolute fundamental space___PHOTONS...!!! Either you believe/know it is, or it isn't___you can't have it both ways.

Originally Posted by Planet_Bob Lloyd, There is so much that I don't agree with, and all of it stems from your view that the FS is somehow effected by thermal energy. [FS is thermal, not necessarily affected by___big difference] At the level of the Fundemental Substance, all problems are barely above being TRUE or FALSE, if at all.[correspondence logic has been valid for over a hundred years, and probability logic and its math was invented by Christiaan Huygens, the true father of photon physics, in the 1600's] Just because there is a potential difference between two distinct parts of the FS, does not mean it has to be thermal.[All differences are velocity differences___all velocity differences are thermal differences___facts of physics since Boltzmann. Also, total thermodynamic heat was long ago proven identical, equivalence principle, to total kinetic energy, or total heat equals total motion of closed systems ___facts of physics. The entire universe is a closed thermodynamic system___closed by its hydrodynamic contraction vs. it's hydrodynamic expansion___velocities of cold contractions/expansions and velocities of heat expansions/contractions___notice, I said velocities of___] What is thermal anyway, except a difference in energy levels. Yes the energy is the FS, but it doesn't have to be thermal.[Energy is always motion of a fundamental substance___motion always incurrs heat___facts of physics___Boltzmann 1800's] One of the main aspects of any Fundemental Substance from which the whole Universe is created is that it must be completely self contained.[It is___we only linguistically separate for understanding the meanings of the one FS motions] There can be no additional bits required to get it to work.[There are no additional bits] The underlying principle of the FS and the manner in which it is able to manifest itself as our Universe comes down to the Permeability and Permittivity of the FS. How much you have and how much you're trying to shove through it.[That's just straight hydrodynamics and mass densities___you're just using a different linguistics/language to describe the same processes] It is changes in these properties that is what moves the FS.[I agree___but the devil is in the interpretations of these fundamental motions___photonic entropy mass, from initial photonic motion moves everything___yet first mass must have first cold/heat motion___or NOTHING happens] It is dynamic, self regulating, but does not include any thermal factors.[No, cold just dissappears right out of the universe___doesn't it? What then creates cold?, oh you'll say lack of heat___incomplete answer! Cold has to be first___to exist at all___no other possibility___and "The highest probability,