[Infinite Consciousness]

Originally Posted by Lloyd Gillespie

IC, this is the whole point of science/physics___we're all trying to exactly figure it out. So far FS is just "stuff", yet we know it's the fuel of the universe, and absolutely has to exist, for the universe to exist. Science doesn't know everything IC, just the stuff we do know___the rest we're working on... I say, in my simple hydro-kinetic ram-jet model, it's the fundamental fuel of all "mass" combustions___stars/black holes to em waves, electrons and neutrinos... Time will tell...

regards,

LG, How would it benifit humanity to figure out what the fundamental substance is ?

Where does humanity go and what do we do if we uncover the fundamental substance ?

Will uncovering the fundamental substance end humanities suffering ?

Is the fundamental substance what we are and don't know it or is the problem that we won't accept it ?

In other words what is our relation to the fundamental substance and will realizing it and merging in it solve all of humanities problems ?

[Lloyd Gillespie]

IC, I'm glad to see you asking scientific questions, thanks. So I don't upset PB to bad, Steven, I'd like you to sincerely know I'm not trying to hijack your thread. I believe we should keep it at this fundamental level, that you started. I was only adding what I see at the fundamental level, as I thought it would tie in with your theorizing, as I am also only theorizing, not googling. I think we are saying much the same things, yet completely talking by each other. I'll try to be more direct to your ideas when I answer your last post. Sorry, if I have inconvenienced you, in your thread, but I would like to continue, to see where your ideas go, at this FS level...

IC, I'll answer your questions inside your post.

Originally Posted by Infinite Consciousness

LG, How would it benifit humanity to figure out what the fundamental substance is ? [IC, this is the only reason I joined this quest, was to try and benefit humanity, not necessarily with physics fundamentals, but by the recognition acquired by discovering a really big idea, to bring attention to my economic ideas. Since the economics community is so full of argument and disagreement, we can't make headway, I have for over thirty years, also studied physics and philosophy, and decided physics was my best shot at bringing attention to my finished economic ideas. Just think how stupid the intellectual and political elite really are___A real world with a potential infinite supply of real paper, only, money___extremely powerful computers and highly powerful programs, and extremely competant programmers___and politicians with the real power to change laws, to re-computerize the nation, or the entire world, into a truly benevolent system___and they CAN'T. This is hog-wash. A room full of children could figure this simple puzzle out, yet we must continue to be ruled by the ignorant academic and politically, theocratic, thinking elite. Believe me, they're much better ways to run a world. This is what a big fundamental idea discovered in physics can change. We can computerize the world into more real wealth, for all, and rid the entire world of poverty, now necessary crime and war. So I search here for the next big fundamental idea. I think it's well worth the while...]

Where does humanity go and what do we do if we uncover the fundamental substance ? [We solve the world's real problems, of feeding, housing, hospitalling, educating and clothing those who truly need it, and raising the working real slave wages of every nation's deserved poor, and even the lower middle class.]

Will uncovering the fundamental substance end humanities suffering ? [Yes, it certainly will, if I discover it, as I do have the economic solutions, to all humanity's problems___It just seemed nobody was interested enough in listening to the correct voices. I'm not the only economist with the correct ideas, there are a handful of us, around the world, with almost identical ideas of real big solutions, yet we are drowned out by the theocratic[belief] thinking economists, of false ideas. Even if I did discover, or put together the big idea, it alone to me, may make me rich, or create some new energy process, but the big physics idea alone, is next to useless at solving humanity's problems, as the economic barons would eat up its good deeds with personal greed. This is why the big idea of physics, must be tied to the big idea of economics' greed solution, to have any bearing at all, on real world solutions.]

Is the fundamental substance what we are and don't know it or is the problem that we won't accept it ? [The fundamental substance is just the base mechanical substance, foundation operations, of the entire universe___nothing more, but physics hasn't got it rightly figured out yet. That's all. Figuring out the {a}bsolute fundamental mechanics of the AFS should also completely figure out the absolute "I" of the mind.]

In other words what is our relation to the fundamental substance and will realizing it and merging in it solve all of humanities problems ?

You don't realize or merge into the fundamental substance, you are in it, IC, you discover it with empirical and logical truths, facts and a lot of hard work___long weary hours, away from family and friends. Science isn't easy, it's a dedicated lifetime persuit of diligent hard work...

Lloyd

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Steven, what do you say we restart from here___the fundamentals? Truly, I'm not trying to hijack your thread, as this is the very subject I want to address more than anything in the world___the absolute fundamental clock of the universe, and the absolute fundamental mechanics of the AFS. I just think it's our language difficulties of interpretations that throws us in opposite directions, when trying to talk about the hardest subject in the world___the one AFS[absolute fundamental substance]. I'd just like to point out the one problem I have with absolute velocity between photons. If the FS happens to be an absolute sea of changed state photons, at their non-viscous infinitesimal fluidic sea state, then there'd be no empty space, anywhere, macro or micro. Then the velocity of all photinic infinitesimal droplet motion would be controlled by the absolute photonic sea density. My ideas varry from yours, at this photon/photonic level, because I don't accept any free empty space, at the AFS level. To me it's an absolutely full photonic sea, state changed, to a non-viscous infinitesimal/infinite fluidic substance, which varries from your individual photon theory. So, we have a fundamental difference. If I may, I would propose, we list all the most important potential attributes AFS would be required to possess, to build an entire universe from scratch, all the way back before first light, in what I would call a dark photonic substance, to compare our theories. Would you be willing to do this? If we investigate our differences far enough, you may be more right than I on the photon clock, but I do see the universal clock as a two stage sub-atomic clock, even at the most fundamental level. I do agree, the universal clock is an absolute requirement of the AFS, and all later motions. I just don't see what makes it tick in your model, or mind, yet. I would also, state for starters, the AFS must be an absolute mechanical system, all the way up and down. I'm still wondering what mechanical system you would like to describe the actions and substance in? You haven't offered a mechanical system description, yet. Please inform me, then I won't have to run around in the dark, like a chicken with his head cut off...

Lloyd

Originally Posted by Planet_Bob

I thought rather than just throwing a concept out there, I would explain in a little more detail.

The most fundemental proposition is to do with the speed of light.

The usual qualifier is that it is measured in a vacuum and from this a constant value is arrived at.

For this TOE, the qualifier is somewhat harder to achieve. In fact it is not currently possible, however the result can be arrived at mathematically.

The true environment to measure the speed at which light can travel between two points should be where the volume between the two points is devoid of all matter. This does not just mean a vacuum, but that there is not heat, light, radiation of any type.

Maxwell's equations show that the speed of light is inversely proportional to the square root if the sum of the properties of free space. Those properties being how free space responds to a magnetic field and its ability to transmit a magnetic field. Permeability and Permittivity.

Using Maxwell's equation, for the speed of light to remain constant, in a vacuum, then the sum of Permeability and Permittivity must remain constant. If for some unexplained reason the Permeability was to change, this in turn would alter the amount of energy that could be transmitted through free space. The more Permeable, the more energy, all the time maintaining the constant value of the speed of light (energy). For the speed of light to remain constant would require a direct relationship between the properties of free space, any fluxtuation in one being offset by a change in the other.
The more photons you pump into a volume of free space, the less permeable it becomes. If you could prevent any photons being pumped in, then you would get absolute permability, a value of zero. Feed that into Maxwell's equation and you arrive at a value for the speed of light as infinite, not in a vacuum, but in a void.

There is no longer any need for a mystical universal constraint on the speed of light(energy), energy is dynamic and creates its own constraint.
Multiple Photons cannot occupy the same space and it is their interaction that in turn limits their velocity.

Velocity is calculated as distance / time. For a photon to travel at infinite velocity must mean that it is able to traverse any distance in zero time.

Zapping across the universe in less than the blink of an eye does seem somewhat inplausable. Our perception of time and our measurements of the size of the universe make it easy for us to dismiss such a claim.

If, on the other hand, you accept the idea that nowhere in the universe is it devoid of even the smallest spot of light or that even in the coldest corners of space the temperature is not quite absolute zero, then you accept that the universe is full of energy.

The prospect now of an energy particle zapping unopposed across the universe in an instance becomes a lot less feasable. The actual distance that a photon is travelling at infinite velocity is relativily small, determined by the permeability of the free space it is travelling through.

Every time a photon reacts with another you have the most fundemental process in the universe. A process that controls all matter and is the basic tick of the universe.
Everything that happens in the Universe happens at the rate of one photon reacting with another and it all happens at the same rate.

What about time dilation and relativity ... ?

Compressed space gives you time dilation due to there being more energy packed into one area.
Space includes those areas between the shelves of an atom, in between the structure that makes up an electron. These places are not empty.

A photon being emitted from an atom takes slightly longer to be emitted because of the compression. It also takes longer to travel from the atom to your eye where it impacts with your retina. The signal now travels to your brain to register the impact, but it takes longer to travel along your optic nerve because of the compressed space. To you everything happened normally, but to a person in a different referencial frame it was slowed down. The photon itself still travelled at inifinite velocity between encountering other photons/energy it just encountered more of them.

Objects travelling at high velocity, in fact any velocity it doesn't have to be high, encounter more photons/energy than they would if it were stationary.

Imagine a clock face and around the outside there are 60 photons. It takes a single photon 60 ticks to complete on revolution. Now double the compression of the local space. There are now 120 photons around the outside of the clock and it takes 120 ticks to complete.
If this clock where an atom, then the effect would be on the orbit of each electron.


PB.

[Planet_Bob]

Originally Posted by Lloyd Gillespie

Steven, what do you say we restart from here___the fundamentals? Truly, I'm not trying to hijack your thread, as this is the very subject I want to address more than anything in the world___the absolute fundamental clock of the universe, and the absolute fundamental mechanics of the AFS. I just think it's our language difficulties of interpretations that throws us in opposite directions, when trying to talk about the hardest subject in the world___the one AFS[absolute fundamental substance].

I think the problem is not so much language as perception.

I'd just like to point out the one problem I have with absolute velocity between photons. If the FS happens to be an absolute sea of changed state photons, at their non-viscous infinitesimal fluidic sea state, then there'd be no empty space, anywhere, macro or micro. Then the velocity of all photinic infinitesimal droplet motion would be controlled by the absolute photonic sea density. My ideas varry from yours, at this photon/photonic level, because I don't accept any free empty space, at the AFS level. To me it's an absolutely full photonic sea, state changed, to a non-viscous infinitesimal/infinite fluidic substance, which varries from your individual photon theory.

It doesn't matter whether it has spaces or not because whatever spaces there are have no dimensions, so what difference does it make. Hence why a photon can cross it at infinite velocity, because it takes no time. What is important is that each quanta of energy/photon is individual and each interaction is an individual event.

Name me one fluid that does not contain spaces.

So, we have a fundamental difference. If I may, I would propose, we list all the most important potential attributes AFS would be required to possess, to build an entire universe from scratch, all the way back before first light, in what I would call a dark photonic substance, to compare our theories. Would you be willing to do this? If we investigate our differences far enough, you may be more right than I on the photon clock, but I do see the universal clock as a two stage sub-atomic clock, even at the most fundamental level.

If it is a two stage clock, what governs the rate of the two stages ?
Surely you need a second clock to govern the first or at least an invariant event, which is as good as a clock.

Everything that has been put in front of you is essentially the most basic it can be, yet you insist on trying to make it more complex.

As far as listing attributes, I think if you read back through this thread you'll find everything.

I do agree, the universal clock is an absolute requirement of the AFS, and all later motions. I just don't see what makes it tick in your model, or mind, yet.

What makes it tick is one photon bumping into another.
You're next question is what makes the photon bump into another one.
The answer is that the photon is in motion.
Your next question is what put in motion.
My answer is - who cares ?
It is surely enough to say it is in motion whether caused by the Big Bang or whatever event brought our Universe into existance.

1. One photon meets another photon (start of tick)
2. Photons do their photon on photon action (energy,direction) (middle of tick)
3. Photons depart (end if tick)

I would also, state for starters, the AFS must be an absolute mechanical system, all the way up and down. I'm still wondering what mechanical system you would like to describe the actions and substance in? You haven't offered a mechanical system description, yet. Please inform me, then I won't have to run around in the dark, like a chicken with his head cut off...

Originally Posted by Planet_Bob

The interaction of a bit of energy depends on the amount of each bit of energy. Which one will be repelled more (and in which direction.)

I've already told you how it works.

If it is the fundmental working of the Universe then it would make sense that it would be singular. One thing that the entire Universe is based on.

If there are more than one thing involved, then it would also make sense that you haven't really found that pivotal one thing on which the whole Universe is based.

So asking for mechanical actionS is not looking at the fundemental level.

PB.

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Steven, my point is that your model is not fundamental enough. The model I keep referring to is the absolute one FS___not more than one, as you keep referring to in your model, and the fundamental difference between first absolute fundamental infinite photon, and second infinitesimal finite tick photon___this level absolutely requires a fundamental mechanics explanation of the universe___The truest first tick of the fundamental clock, from the infinite FS/Photon, to the infinitesimal fundamental finite photon___This level must be explained, as it's the heart of the universe, and the universal clock, and all its radiation ticks. Your model is incomplete, without this most fundamental level. We can only know how the universal clock works, if we do the mechanics from the absolute first tick "one single infinite photon to the finite infinitesimal photon", not from second tick "two" finite/infinitesimal photons. This way the absolutely necessary fundamental wave dynamics of the real universe will be included.

I think the problem is not so much language as perception.


It doesn't matter whether it has spaces or not because whatever spaces there are have no dimensions, so what difference does it make.[This makes no logical sense. You can't have it both ways. Either it is space and dimensions, or it's not.] Hence why a photon can cross it at infinite velocity, because it takes no time.[Logically inaccurate because of last statement.] What is important is that each quanta of energy/photon is individual and each interaction is an individual event.[I agree, only after first absolute fundamental condition is met___The one infinite photon to the many infinitesimal individual photons.]

Name me one fluid that does not contain spaces. [It absolutely must be FS, the only true ONE. The universal clock, and heat/sound radiation of___can work no other way.]

If it is a two stage clock, what governs the rate of the two stages ? [Heat and sound___the tick_tick_tick of friction heat, against the ONE FS/photon cold.]
Surely you need a second clock to govern the first or at least an invariant event, which is as good as a clock.[All fundamental motions are invariant events, all the way through finiteness, thus the ONE fundamental universal clock exists and works, all the way up.]

Everything that has been put in front of you is essentially the most basic it can be, yet you insist on trying to make it more complex.[I only insist in making it more fundamental. One absolute FS mechanics, not two, even though it creates 2^n.]

As far as listing attributes, I think if you read back through this thread you'll find everything. [I've read it many times, already, and I find it slightly incomplete, as to the absolute FS mechanics. Only slightly, though Steven. You've done an excellent job of forcing the model to the fundamental levels. I just think it needs a little further explanation, at the most absolute fundamental ONE level.]

What makes it tick is one photon bumping into another. [I slightly agree. I would state the most fundamental level, as the ONE infinite photon, bumping/moving into itself, within itself___first self-motion___to create the infinitesimal finite number of individual photons.]
You're next question is what makes the photon bump into another one.
The answer is that the photon is in motion. [I absolutely agree.]
Your next question is what put in motion.
My answer is - who cares ? [Everyone cares. It's the crux of the TOE.]
It is surely enough to say it is in motion whether caused by the Big Bang or whatever event brought our Universe into existance. [It doesn't answer everything, unless it answers the force of motion and mechanics question. The clock doesn't function properly, until first fundamental motions/forces are known and understood, thoroughly.]

1. One photon meets another photon (start of tick)
2. Photons do their photon on photon action (energy,direction) (middle of tick)
3. Photons depart (end if tick)

I've already told you how it works.[All fine and accepted, if first ONE photon is the infinite ONE FS, acting first within itself, by its own self-centered, self-created, cold motion. There is no other first motion possible___the one degree of freedom, of already known low temperature physics___nearest 0k.]

If it is the fundmental working of the Universe then it would make sense that it would be singular.[Absolutely singular ONE. I agree.] One thing that the entire Universe is based on. [ONE absolutely fused infinite FS, capable of defusion and diffusion, changing states, with motion.]

If there are more than one thing involved, then it would also make sense that you haven't really found that pivotal one thing on which the whole Universe is based.[Absolutely agreed.]

So asking for mechanical actionS is not looking at the fundemental level.[We have capable minds. We can physically objectify any initial conditions, of the absolute ONE first fused state FS. Though it may only be a static model, this fundamental mechanics, must be understood, to truly understand all universal dynamics. This allows for an absolutely changing state, yet clocked, fundamental scalar wave/substance evolution.]

Hope I haven't thrown you off base too much, just trying to work together, to get to the absolute fundamental bottom of a possible new universal knowledge model.

Regards,
Lloyd

[magic]

the meaning of words

Before we agree to disagree, let us remind ourselves of the Meaning of Words, that we ourselves invest them with meaning, or that the meaning adheres to the Word as in the application of a label to an object, the signifier to the signified.

[Planet_Bob]

Steven, my point is that your model is not fundamental enough. The model I keep referring to is the absolute one FS___not more than one, as you keep referring to in your model, and the fundamental difference between first absolute fundamental infinite photon, and second infinitesimal finite tick photon___this level absolutely requires a fundamental mechanics explanation of the universe___The truest first tick of the fundamental clock, from the infinite FS/Photon, to the infinitesimal fundamental finite photon___This level must be explained, as it's the heart of the universe, and the universal clock, and all its radiation ticks. Your model is incomplete, without this most fundamental level. We can only know how the universal clock works, if we do the mechanics from the absolute first tick "one single infinite photon to the finite infinitesimal photon", not from second tick "two" finite/infinitesimal photons. This way the absolutely necessary fundamental wave dynamics of the real universe will be included.

The first tick that you are looking for is pure speculation and there is no way to determine whether you are right or wrong. There are enough books and other publications available as to the origin of the Universe, and whatever you come up with will merely add to the myriad of existing theories that are beyond our reach.

The second and subsequent ticks are how the Universe works and it is these that my model describes.

I'm not a religious person, but if there is a creator, let him have his moment of glory. If there isn't then we can just be thankful for the event that started everything.
Whatever event brought our Universe into existance is beyond our comprehension and maybe that's where it should stay.

Since when does the Universe need absolutely necessary fundamental wave dynamics ?
A wave is a composite entity and cannot exist as part of the most fundemental events in the Universe.
The same is true for heat and sound, yet you keep throwing them in there. If you need to include any kind of wave in your explanation of how things work then you are not making it more fundemental, you are making it more complex.

You agreed that the fundemental workings of the Universe be based on a single thing. I was talking about a singular event, I think you were suggesting a singular entity. I'm saying that you are wrong, it is based on a single entity, but one which is involved in a single event. Not the list that you came up with (capable of defusion and diffusion, changing states, with motion).


PB.

[Coldcreation]

Originally Posted by Planet_Bob

...I'm not a religious person, but if there is a creator, let him have his moment of glory. If there isn't then we can just be thankful for the event that started everything.

Moment of glory? Why?

Be thankful for the event? Thankful? Why, because we would be here to write about otherwise?

There is no guarantee that an event started everything. The event formerly known as the big bang has been removed from the standard model.

Originally Posted by Planet_Bob

Whatever event brought our Universe into existance is beyond our comprehension and maybe that's where it should stay.

Yes, that is why it was removed from the standard model. But what, then, makes you think that the universe came into existance? Why is it beyond (and why should it stay beyond) our comprehension how the universe has evolved, from wh state(s) it has evolved. Certainly, if man is capable of creating god, we should be able to create a world-model that does embody all empirical evidence.

Originally Posted by Planet_Bob

Since when does the Universe need absolutely necessary fundamental wave dynamics ?
A wave is a composite entity and cannot exist as part of the most fundemental events in the Universe.
...

The entire universe could be described by a wave function. Why would a wave not be fundamental? What do you mean by fundamental? If the wave (or fluctuation) is made up of zero-point energy than it would be fundamental (in my opinion; since it is irreducible).

Originally Posted by Planet_Bob

You agreed that the fundemental workings of the Universe be based on a single thing. I was talking about a singular event, I think you were suggesting a singular entity. I'm saying that you are wrong, it is based on a single entity, but one which is involved in a single event. Not the list that you came up with (capable of defusion and diffusion, changing states, with motion).
PB.

If I may add, the single entity (or event) argument is untenable. There needs to be along with ground-state energy (zero-point energy, ZPE), zero-point fluctuations, ZPF. Because both ZPE and ZPF are irreducible you automatically have gravity (spacetime curvature), since energy gravitates.

It could be argued right there that at least three fundamental entities, things, units, events, phenomena, states, properties (call them what you will) are required in a universe governed by physical laws: they are called ZPE, ZPF and gravity.

Coldcreation

[Planet_Bob]

Coldcreation,
Good to see somebody else posting on this thread.

Originally Posted by Coldcreation

The entire universe could be described by a wave function. Why would a wave not be fundamental? What do you mean by fundamental? If the wave (or fluctuation) is made up of zero-point energy than it would be fundamental (in my opinion; since it is irreducible).

ZPE is another way of describing what this thread is all about. As for a wave, it could describe the Universe, but it is reducible so therefore not fundemental.

Originally Posted by Coldcreation

If I may add, the single entity (or event) argument is untenable. There needs to be along with ground-state energy (zero-point energy, ZPE), zero-point fluctuations, ZPF. Because both ZPE and ZPF are irreducible you automatically have gravity (spacetime curvature), since energy gravitates.

ZPF is speculated to cease at ultra high frequencies, so it is also reducible. If gravity is an effect, as has been posted in this thread, then this also is reducible to its cause.

The only thing you are left with is ZPE, or FS as we have been calling it in this thread.

Originally Posted by Coldcreation

It could be argued right there that at least three fundamental entities, things, units, events, phenomena, states, properties (call them what you will) are required in a universe governed by physical laws: they are called ZPE, ZPF and gravity.

Your three things can now be reduced to a single entity, ZPE/FS.


PB.

[Coldcreation]

Originally Posted by Planet_Bob

Coldcreation,
Good to see somebody else posting on this thread.


ZPE is another way of describing what this thread is all about. As for a wave, it could describe the Universe, but it is reducible so therefore not fundemental.


ZPF is speculated to cease at ultra high frequencies, so it is also reducible. If gravity is an effect, as has been posted in this thread, then this also is reducible to its cause.

The only thing you are left with is ZPE, or FS as we have been calling it in this thread.



Your three things can now be reduced to a single entity, ZPE/FS.


PB.

Remind me what FS stands for. Is that fundamental substance? Is that eather?

ZPE obligatorily carries with it zero-point fluctuations and spacetime curvature (gravity). That adds up to three. You cannot have only ZPE (or only FS) alone, QM, GR and the laws of thermodynamics forbid it.

Any fundamental substance, FS (some for of electromagnetic energy I presume) where there is no fluctuation or motion. Otherwise you could determine the location and velocity of an electron simultaneously.

So what are we left with? ZRE, ZPF and gravity. The latter is also irreducible according to GR.

A universe with only two things is untenable, a third fundamental ingredient is required. In this case, gravity.

If I understand your idea correctly, you argue that FS does not gravitate, or that somehow gravity is not fundamental because it has a "cause" (without saying what the cause is?). That is a large assumption.

The same would go for motion in your concept? Motion has a cause so it is not fundamental? It seems to me motion (zero-point fluctuation) is fundamental since it is irreducible, just like gravity. YOu wrote above that ZPF "cease at ultra high frequencies, so it is also reducible" but they don't cease at ultra low frequencies, when associated with low energy (ZPE or ground-state energy) so they are irreducible.

Without ground energy nothing would exist, without fluctuation nothing would change, without gravity nothing would coalesce.

CC