Do you believe in Creation?

[theunify]

I suppose once you put your mind to creation, its hard to let go of the possibility that evolution is a tad wrong, and vice versa, once you accept evolution it's hard to accept creation, I studied evolution like most of us here at TOequest, but I also believe in creation.

I think I believe in creation because, evolutionists are soo convinced they are right, that makes me think they are wrong or at least, wrong in thinking they are 100% right. I'd rather believe in a theory that allows for a God than a theory that doesn't, simply because it makes more sense for a complex Universe such as ours to be explained by a theory that encompasses "spiritual" rather than "physical", what is so logical about the big-bang, is that not a spiritual? process when we seperate it from the fact that rationalization is not the be all end all?? therefore which way do you lean...

[Profpat]

I agree with you that God created the heavens and the Earth. I think he took evolutionary steps to do this and that man was the last step. I think science agrees that there was a "BIG BANG" which started this and that man was at the end of the evolutionary steps. Profpat

[austintorn@aol.com]

Part 1

I think that God was a likely creation of early man and that it caught on; however, no one has heard from him or seen him, except for the leaders of the Mormans, Lutherans, those who wrote each bible, and many more religions, whose leaders personally received direct revelations. Unfortunately their scoops contradicted each other and several chapters of many bibles were thrown out.

At first he lived on the sun; he moved to the moon; then resided on Mt. Olympus; later became invisible; and finally, imaginary.

All this aside, “god as the answer for creation” commits the fallacy of begging the question, as well as taking myth for truth.


My other thoughts on the matter:


A God-who-is-a-person would, like us,
Be composite, and thus exist above
The Ground of Ultimate Reality,
And, so, could not, in itself, be its own cause.

The above composite God, complete with a planning system and an emotional system, seems to be a problem in very many ways. See

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/god-toc.htm

A God-which-is-not-a-person would be
The Ground of Ultimate Reality—
Strings, Energy, Awareness, whatever—
The source of which forms/is our reality.

You could even call it the Ground of Determination (G-O-D or G.O.D.) and then at least it would have a single meaning.


…Still awake, they looked up into the night sky. He began to formulate a poetic theory of life. “Somewhere out there, deep in the vast darkroom of the endless void, is the eternal substance from which we flashed into being—exhibiting all of our color and grace. Like a prismatic lens, we strain the white lights of the stars into the rainbows of our lives, as the poet Shelley has alluded to.”

“And here we shine! We’ve come a long way from the stars, from stardust.”

“And all those stars burning out there, they are the fires of home!”

“Some legends say that the stars are goblets in the sky, placed there so we can taste Heaven’s drink when we die.”

“We have many myths and legends, but, while we talk and hope and dream, the stars shine on, heedless of where we lie—after we die.”

He looked up at the stars and began to wonder aloud. “The one metaphysical question that people have always asked is, Where did it all come from?”

“First, let us think of what we know, or even what we think that we know: Matter must be eternal and has always existed in some form or potential, for it could not have sprung into being out of nowhere.”

“Still, people keep thinking about it and sometimes they fool themselves into thinking that they have found THE answer to the ultimate question,” she noted.

“How do they do that?”

“Well, they beg the question by proposing a mysterious solution which, though seemingly satisfying at first, only introduces a deeper question that is larger than, although similar to, the original question.”

“For example?”

“Well, because the Earth is so complex and because its life processes are not all readily understandable, some people believe that Earth and life must have a Designer.”

“The Earth couldn’t just simply be here through natural causes without any such Designer, meaning a Being, a god-who-is-a-person?”

“Well, it could be, actually. What I mean is that it could have been formed by natural laws from the eternal substance that you mentioned before, but people still feel, or perhaps strongly wish, that the Earth should have an origin from a Designer. After all, effects do seem to usually have causes, do they not, though a Being raises very similar questions?”

“Well, matter or its potential could have always have been around!”

“True enough, but people feel that this could never have happened, for they reason that all things must have a divine source. God is their solution, the beginning.”

“You mean a creative deity? A super being?”

“Yes, and the other nice thing about their solution is that it gives them something to look forward to—a divine destiny in Heaven, a reward—something that is quite desirable, of course.”

“That solution is a gigantic step, but an understandable one.”

“Yes, but people still have a tendency to assign divinity for what they do not understand. Thousands of years ago, the gods were said to have resided on the highest mountain tops of Olympus.”

“Until people climbed those mountains and saw no gods there.”

“Yes, and so then the gods were relegated to more distant and Heavenly realms, such as the sun and the moon, but were not found there either.”

“Well, I may believe in laws by which the universe naturally operates due to the interrelations of magnetic, electric, and atomic forces and such, but that’s not the God to which you’re referring to, of course.”

“Right, I’m referring to a conscious super being called God, the supposed creator of Heaven and Earth. You’re referring to the life principle that is part and parcel of all that exists, the very force of existence itself—a force that’s eternal, although we ourselves may not be.”

“So, God created matter and energy and all that is?”

“So they say.”

“But where did God come from?”

“Well, either he always existed or he was created from nothing.”

“Or both, since it is said that he made himself.”

“But, of course, now we’re right back to the original dilemma.”

“Ah, they have begged the question!”

“Yes, they’ve answered the question by proposing a more difficult question.”

“True; to summarize: They weren’t willing to accept that all the matter and energy of the universe could have formed itself or always have been, so they said that God created it; but then they easily accepted the fact that God, who is way more complex than the universe, formed himself or always had been!”

“Right, the solution to the larger problem is exactly the solution that they refused to accept to the smaller problem in the first place. A needless extra step was introduced, an extra complexity.”

“However, after all this we still don’t know where the universe came from.”

“True, all we really know for sure is that we’re here and that there are laws and forces and life principles which have and may continue to allow the universe to operate in the consistent and stable fashion that we can know and see.”

“Well, we’ll just have to listen to our own intuition.”

“It’s all we have to go on.”

“Is the super being, if there is one, good, bad, or indifferent?”

“It is assumed that he is good, but there’s no reason he couldn’t be bad. But, again, it’s merely conjecture to ascribe human emotions to a being who may well be above all that. Some religions say that’s he’s both bountiful and vengeful, that his love is conditional; that is, either we obey his laws or he’ll punish and torture us in Hell. And that he destroys life, as in the great flood”

“And that he allows the Devil to exist to tempt us?”

“Yes, maybe, as they say or invent, so we can earn our place in Heaven.”

“You mean, or rather, some religions say that God shaped our human nature, and then introduced temptations to our nature, and then intends to punish us merely for being human?”

“So they say, although you’ve pointed out the absurdity of it.”

“Anyway, the gods of all religions don’t have the same character.”

“How do religions know any of this stuff anyway?”

“Well, the founders of many of the various religions claim to have had divine inspirations, either by direct contact or through visions and visitations with God himself. Unfortunately, God told them each something different; thus the existence of the Mormons, Lutherans, Moslems, Jews, Catholics, etc. There must be hundreds of religions, all claiming by divine inspiration that they are the one and only true path to Heaven, and that all the others are false, or so they heard from the voices in their heads.”

“Well, since they all contradict each other, how do we know which is the right one, if any?”

“We don’t; it’s hard to sort it all out. There’s Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, and some other prophets—telling us of places like Hell, Heaven, purgatory, nirvana, etc. These are all major differences in beliefs!”

“And some eastern religions don’t even mention God. They’re based more on the idea of a life principle being ingrained in all things below, not above.”

“And some western religions say that God must be adored and glorified and bowed down to. But again, this may just be one of man’s own emotional inventions from what he’s used to.”

“Well, if I were a god and ruled above, you could take away all of my powers but love!”

“That’s very ingenious and generous of you—but, of course, love means generosity. We have no use for an unloving God”

“And then there are the Polynesians, the Indonesians, and the Melanesians. They have elaborate superstitions and beliefs in good and evil spirits and how to get a higher place in Heaven.”

“Which isn’t really too different from most religions today, actually.”

“Yes, but doesn’t the end sometimes justify the means, for most religions advocate goodness. Jesus preached that we should give love and kindness to our fellow man, just like the Buddha taught. And the Virgin Mary may have been a good person, though some religions don’t believe in her.”

“Yes, those are good policies for anyone to follow, anytime, regardless of religion or belief. I live them. You live them. Jesus was good, but his father wasn’t. Nor do we know if Jesus was really divine.”

“Religion is good for certain borderline people; it can nudge them toward the way to being good. Unfortunately, it can also blind them, brainwash them, and bias them.”

“How so?”

“Well, when one believes in something very deeply, one tends to become intolerant of those with other beliefs, even good ones, because allowance of other beliefs seems to lessen the credibility of one’s own belief.”

“Then so it is that Moslem children learn at a young age to dislike the Jewish people and their culture.”

“Yes, that’s part of it. It’s the differences between cultures that starts wars, and there have been plenty of religious differences that have caused wars.”

“Such as the Protestants vs. the Catholics in Ireland, the Sikhs vs. the Hindus in India, the Jewish persecution, the Wars of the Crusades, the Shiites vs. the Sunnis in Iraq.”

“So, like anything else, religions are neither good nor bad but humans only make them so.”

“One is free to believe as one chooses, but there will always be some know-it-all evangelist trying to convince us otherwise.”

“Maybe we should put all the evangelists, preachers, and solicitors in one room and let them all talk to each other.”

“At first, each would be convinced beyond a doubt that they were right.”

“Yes, they would, but soon they’d all see that the others were convinced, also, then perhaps they might realize that that their beliefs were arbitrary—being dependent mostly on their parent’s religion or region of birth, and realize that they, if born elsewhere or under other circumstances, might espouse different beliefs.”

“Well, my dear, you’ve come a long way for a nun.”

“And you, for a monk.”

“So, perhaps Heaven’s promise is bereft, but I’m not distressed. I can’t know all the secrets, so I’ve dismissed the dream of immortality, although I certainly wouldn’t mind having it. For now, I live life with gratitude and accept whatever is left.”

“Me too. I’ve said my good-byes to faith’s dream of forever. I am, of course, much too philosophical to be bitter. Like you, I am resigned to it. I, too, accept, with hunger and joy and pleasure, whatever is left of the dream.”

“People like to wish and dream and believe that they are more than they are, that they deserve a divine destiny, that they are special among all creation. It’s only natural to desire something good, although greedy, perhaps.”

“Of course, but the ultimate humility would be to know that there may be no divine destiny, that we are all just fancy electrochemical organisms, and very much a part of the natural organic world.”


A Letter from the Futurians

(About the Worst Role Model)

Religion eventually collapsed, partly because of the wars and prejudice that it caused and because the science of two thousand years ago finally became obsolete and because life found on other planets had no such legends of God, but mostly because God was no longer seen to be a good role model and because the divinity of Jesus came into question along with everything else—making it all a wishful myth. The Europeans began the abandonment and the Americas soon followed. The general analysis follows, and was, amazingly, published way back in 2007 in a TOE forum:

The current God of the Old Testament, is an amalgamation of old Jewish legends of many imagined Gods rolled into one, and is followed as a leader, but, I suggest, is in reality not a leader or a role model at all, and is not someone that we really, deep down, would really wish to follow, imitate, emulate, adore, or be like.

He is an abuser, pure and simple. There is no way around it. God killed all life, excepting Noah and his family, in the Great Flood. This included all men, women, children and their pets. Furthermore, he erred in doing so since he is not all-knowing and supposedly created the rainbow to show that he would never do such a bad thing again. Although some would imitate his genocide, like Hitler, or Saddam, most of us wouldn’t. It was a rather large mistake for someone so infallible to make. “Whoops! I so easily wiped out everyone, but I won’t do it again”. Sure. How callous! God won’t even kill Satan, the total embodiment of Evil, but kills children and their kitty cats. There is no getting around this one with fancy cover-up words, like that he works in strange ways. Perhaps the bible is wrong? Of course it is—it contains only really old legends and superstitions.

His Original Sin blamed us at birth for the sins of our ancestors, Adam and Eve. We don’t usually do this to people who have bad ancestors. This is dead wrong.

Also, in Eden, he apparently wasn’t all-knowing in supposing that children certainly won’t want to touch that which they are forbidden to touch. Please don’t touch the apple. It’s was devious entrapment plan. Who would follow that example?

He grants free will, only to take it back by threatening to burn us forever if our will does not match his will. We good people would not hold a gun to someone’s head and say accept me or die. In God We Fear, it seems, not In God We Trust. Benevolent Gods don’t punish and torture creatures they make. Would you? He just doesn’t honor his creations as he would honor himself. Even hoards and hosts of intelligent angels didn’t like him.

The Christian concept of reward and punishment that is handed out by an omnipotent, omniscient God, is but derivative of the family experience, the child and parent—a conception of our world painted onto God’s. We didn’t ask to be born into rules and regulations and punishment.

God’s actions are more like Satan’s—although Satan hasn’t done such yet. Not to mention why God allows the Devil to even exist to tempt our very human nature that God himself created in us. Doesn’t God abhor evil? Did he goof in granting us strong drives, only to say not to use them? Did he fill the glass of our human nature overflowing to the brim and then say not to spill it?

Perhaps he is a rather poor craftsman, or is no good himself, for we are made in his image, he says. He tries to blame everyone (us) for all of his mistakes Would we good people do that?. He tells people, like Abraham, to sacrifice (kill) their children.

All of the above is why many churches have abandoned God (of the Old testament) and turned to Jesus, a fine human, as their central figure—but, wait, who is he the son of or part of? God the Father. The problem returns. The vengeful one is still the leader.

And how is his insanity explained away—by saying the he works in mysterious (insane) ways. This admits that he is terrible and not a good role model.

Why did Jesus die for our sins when we merely—in the Catholic church—have to confess them and have them washed away forever. Not to mention that we did not even exist or commit sins when Jesus died for them.

How arbitrary is it that the Jews say Jesus wasn’t even Godlike or even God’s messenger—and they were even there at the time. or that Islam says that Mohammed was the prophet, not Jesus. Or that the Mormons say that Jesus was in America for his first 30 years. Or that the Lutherans say that Mary was not special. Or committing the most heinous crimes and then being forgiven upon repenting, as the Catholics believe. Well, you get the picture—all the beliefs are arbitrary. The sad part is that many of the religious of one belief would be espousing some of these other beliefs had they been born into other religions. Beliefs are mostly geographical, familial, sociological, not to mention illogical, but, we often believe legends that are drilled into us. Jesus is a good human as are many others like Gandhi, Buddha, and Mother Teresa.

There have been many such savior myths such as Jesus throughout the ages. People joining cults still fall for those who say they are from god and they always will. People want, want, want rewards and afterlife. The founders of the religions were all ‘divinely inspired’, but, were each told a different story; now we know that their visions were but psychotic episodes—hallucinations and voices. As for priest’s ‘callings’, only 2% of the world’s population tens toward schizo, but 17% of priests do.

This is not even to mention that so many religions are contradictory in very major areas, and therefore as arbitrary as belief in Zeus or the Sun God. Are we religious because of geographical or sociological ‘learning’. Is religion, being a major part of culture, one of the differences that leads to so many wars?

How intolerant are we of those who differ. Naturally, people like to think they are special and above the animals, but our DNA is 98% similar to a chimp’s. 95% identical to a gorilla’s. We are closer to chimps that chimps are to gorillas. Two of our chromosomes fused together and so we can no longer mate with chimps, their number of chromosomes now differing from ours by one. We are not so special afterall—this is the ultimate humility—to realize that we are part and parcel of the organic world, rare and smart, yes, but electrochemical biological beings.

And what of the natural human need to explain the universe? We beg the question by assigning God to that cause and thereby only compose a larger problem: how do we explain God? A larger God? Suddenly, an even larger quandary doesn’t even need answering. The same answers that serve for God’s birth can serve for the birth of the Universe. Why add an extra step?

Nor was the world created in six days or 6000 years—we can see many billions of years into the past with telescopes, for that is how long the light took to reach us.

As for no sex without procreation, this goes against all evolution. As for evolution, there is a fossil record beyond doubt.

Now the Pope says no football or sports on Sunday—not that I would watch it anyway. We must really think hard if we wish to follow a non role model who is vengeful and controlling and punishing. Out of fear? But this is not how it is, really, for belief in God is but a superstition. I merely wish to point out the absurdities of it all.

As for the church, they once thought that physical illnesses were caused by evil spirits and devils, for they didn’t know about germs and viruses. Do they fall into the same trap now with mental ills called sins?

Does the Devil cause aberrant thoughts or does low serotonin cause it—the neurotransmitter that regulates mood—yes, indeed, strange moods are molecular events, nothing more, due to chemical imbalances in the brain. Even now, this is known. How many decades will it take the church to get the news? Add a low heart rate—meaning no anxiety or guilt—to someone, along with chemical imbalances causing unmanaged anger—and you have someone who may rob a gas station and kill.

As for only allowing men to become Catholic priests and requiring them to be celibate, we know what unnatural results of child abuse came from that unnatural practice. Why discriminate against women? Would you? God needs a girlfriend!

The Lord requires adoration and worship—would we do that if we made life or do we require that from our pets? Or would we just give love with no strings attached? Perhaps we wouldn’t if we had low self-esteem like the Lord. So, let us adore and worship him over and over. He even gets jealous and envious of strange gods/idols before him. Why does he covet and require approval, adoration, worship and much praise. Would we do that?

And his emotional system with such temper outbursts! Like any system, it is composite and depends on what underlies reality for its existence, for these parts are needed to make a system. Perhaps he needs Prozac. In any case, he is NOT a good example to follow, much less adore.

Did he save you from a car accident, only to kill the poor sap behind you? Does he give you a sunny day for your wedding or give the farmer a rainy day for his crops? Did you beg for favors and get ahead by ‘cheating’, that is, having outside help, or did you make it on your own? Did you pick up litter on a beach because it was the right thing to do or because God might be watching?

Who is the worst role model? God, who says “Vengeance is mine alone.” or a God who would say “You can take away all my powers but love”?

The days are long gone when we had to revere the Sun God or be thrown out of the tribe, but that’s how adherence to superstition began. How about astrology? It is still followed.

Think of how silly it is to believe in an invisible man up in the sky who never once even said a word. Or did he talk through Mohammed? Of course not. You don’t believe in Mohammed You get it now—even your superstition is arbitrary. God, or Allah, or Jehovah, or Yahweh, whatever his alias, is a terrorist and is wanted for crimes against humanity, and is certainly not a good role model to follow.


…“Lay down on your back,” she said. “Let’s pretend that we’re floating through deep space.”

“Once we were,” he said.

“When we were stardust,” she surmised.

“Time, death, and stardust.”

Those three were our birthright.” She noted, “Death chose the pointed from the pointless. Death sifted the best from the rest.”

“But it took a lot of time,” he added. “Since death was the only evaluator, it took eons and ages of time for us to evolve from stardust into humans.”

“Time, death, and stardust. They write our epitaph as well as our birthright,” she noted.

“Yes, they do. When our time expires, death will come, and only dust will be left.”

“From time and death and dust we came, and to this, that, and thus we must return.”

“Born from stardust, nourished by sunlight, I’ve filled my cup with wonders of delight.”

“Life is a treasure, a radiant gem, a light that I’ll never see again.”

She said “Let me elaborate and tell you about our true colors, our spirits. We are the Eternal Smile of Being, the Joy of the Universe’s Creation! In us the Cosmos has come alive and has evolved into us from primordial matter and energy. We have arrived! We are the Cosmos itself. We ARE the Universe—life from Stardust!

“We live but for one of Eternity’s heartbeats, borrowing Life from Death for just a while. All that we are we owe to Time, Death, and Stars. Truly, from the Stars cometh our help, and much more. The Stars are the creators of matter and energy. Within a Star’s heart, matter transforms itself and gives energy—this is why the Stars shine! Death is the ultimate evaluator and the director of all evolutionary progress. Over eons upon eons, Death selects the wise from the silly; Death chooses the useful from the useless, but, it takes Time. It is this long yardstick that sticks in our throat when we try to contemplate it.

“However, in the case of gene mutation itself, this moves along quickly, once it happens from cosmic rays or whatever, for most gene mutations are bad and lead to instant death.

“Anyway, for what seemed like Forever, our sleepless spirits have waited to catch light, life, and delight from Heaven’s smile. Finally, we are so lucky and we live. We stand atop the pinnacle of Nature’s tireless toil which has at last brought forth our souls from that black and endless eternal deep. What a joy to Be!

“Blake said ‘In what far and fiery depths of space burnt the fire of your Spirit? In what distant Stars was born the gleam in your eye?’ Know it well, for one day Death will ask you “What did you do all of your life?”. But, for now we are alive. Our mind and senses interpret and distort the one Reality into the colors and sensations of the phenomenal world. We can become either rainbows or ugly stains! Our minds, like Shelley’s prisms of many-colored glass, strain this white Radiance of Eternity into our life—until Death tramples us—and back we go to stardust after relentless time has wasted us away. Yes, our creators of Time, Death, and Stardust must also write our epitaph; they devour us in order to return that life-dream which was lent to us. But, here we are now, and perhaps we come to know that the simpler things in life are still the best: A glass of water from the well in the morning; to love, laugh, and sing with family and friends. And so we live out our lives with honor and love, kindness and generosity—these are our true colors. Life for the sake of life! Good for good’s sake! Enjoying everyone and everything and every season.

“Many think that they are more important than they really are, that they deserve some reward of a divine destiny in Heaven where their every whim, wish, and fancy can be fulfilled for all of time, forever and ever. Well, to me, such endless satisfaction and pleasure sounds really rather prideful, wishful, even decadent. The ultimate humility is, I think, for us to realize that we are no more than electrochemical organisms, that we, too, are part of nature. Are we quite lucky and fancy organisms? Oh, yes. Are we specially created by a Master? Oh, no. We are the embodiment of the Cosmos and are ever the results of natural laws of Physics and Chemistry. Death may be forever, but man, with his exaggerated view of self-importance, and, not wishing to see a final end to his glorious life—and I can hardly blame him—desperately grasps for immortality’s promise. For me, I will continue to catch life’s joy and smile and will bathe in the light of its constant sunrise. On my last night on this Earth I will not be haunted by regret when the Sleep of Death comes to take me to Corruption’s dim dwelling place—for I will know that I lived for color and smile.

“And what of the Stars? They remain, as Eternity’s Love-lamps, which even the fathomless night cannot quench. Perhaps one day, at the end of forever, the Stars too will die and grow cold when Time conquers all; but, as long as they live they will shine and radiate the hues that paint the colors of our ashes reborn again on the phoenix wings of Time.”

(Evolution stretched over billions over years, from the simple to the complex—it’s hard to fathom how long this time was.)

[austintorn@aol.com]

Part 2

Who the Heck is God?


A alien from another planet with no supernatural beliefs arrived on Earth and asked “What is this God that some people speak of? What’s He like? What should I believe? People say He’s all around, but invisible. Is this myth or fact?”

“Well,” a TOE forum member replied, role the dice and take your pick of one or more of positions that humans have arbitrarily taken, and a few scientific ones by those educated in the natural sciences:


00 God can perform any miracle whatsoever and does so often, but it is never anything obvious like healing an amputee by growing back an arm or a leg.

01 God does not exist and was made up out of humans’ wishes for an afterlife and/or is derivative of the child-parent relationship.

02 God really exists as defined by a certain religion, which happens to be mine, but not as He is defined by other religions.

03 God once lived on the moon, then on the sun, then on Mt. Olympus, but now lives in Heaven.

04 Jesus is divine, being the son of God, for we were there at the time. (Christian)

05 Jesus is not the son of God, for we were there at the time. (Jewish)

06 Mohammed was the prophet of God, not Jesus, for he said so. (Islamic)

07 The Bible is the word of God and is literally true. The Earth was made in 6 days is only 5000 years old.

08 The Bible is an amalgamation of of old Jewish legends and the history of some of tribes moving around. It has a lot of good poetry, but it was made by mere humans, not God.

09 Mary was the virgin mother of God (Christian).

10 Mary is not recognized as special (Lutheran).

11 Jesus spent a lot of time in America but no other religions know about this (Mormon).

12 God created reality because it could not make itself and it could not always have had the potential to exist and it could not have been here forever. It is ridiculous for reality to have always existed or to have formed itself.

13 God did make Himself and was here forever. It is not ridiculous for a God to have always existed or to have formed Itself.

14 God is benevelent—all on Earth may enter Heaven. He wields no power but love.

15 God is vindictive—if your god-given free will does not follow His will, He will torture you forever by burning you in Hell.

16 Only Christians may enter Heaven. (the Pope)

17 All but the Moslems are infidels and can’t enter Heaven.

18 There is/is not Heaven, Devil, Angels Hell, Purgatory, Limbo.

19 God answers prayers and e-mails.

20 God leaves us on our own and doesn’t interfere.

21 God made divine revelations to the founder of my religion, but not to the founders of other religions.

22 The angel Gabriel appeared to Mohammed in a cave.

22 An angel appeared to Mary to prepare her for the Immaculate Conception.

23 God is all knowing.

24 God had no idea that the humans of Noah’s era would turn out so bad.

25 God is infallible.

26 God exterminated all life in Noah’s time, but then realized He made a big mistake and so invented the rainbow as a sign that He would never make this mistake again.

27 God wants statues in churches (Catholic).

28 God does not want statues in churches (Protestant).

29 The Pope is infallible.

30 The Pope is not recognized by other religions.

31 Evolution never happened.

32 God created life by letting evolution take over for him.

33 God created Adam and Eve out of clay.

34 God only wants men to be priests.

35 God wants both men and women to be clerics.

36 God will soon end the world, although He was going to do so in the 1990’s but changed His mind. (Jehovah Witness)

37 God, with His intelligence systems and emotional systems is far too complex of a composite to be absolute and fundamental and be made only of Himself.

99 Many items have omitted above that could be thought of to add to the confusion.


HE Reigns


“Who makest me?” she cried to the sky. “Reveal thyself! Who art thou?”

The heavens remained dumb.

She again cried, “Who hast made me? Who?—Thy image is tainted!”

Visions of angels appeared in the sky. “You have a question for us?” they asked.

“Yes, what sort of God made me to suffer and toil in this sad world?”

“It’s a lovely and beautiful world,” said the angels, in chorus.

“OK,” she said, “I’ll play your game. Tell me now, who made this varied and sensual world of charm and grace and color? Who gave me intellectual beauty and those rare but beautiful waves of emotions which I have known and enjoyed for their breathtaking meaning and depth?”

“A good and loving spirit,” they said. “That’s our usual answer.”

“And who gave me freedom to love and live and grow, flowering free and fragile, though beautiful, but then withering, faded and forlorn in old age, like some evanescent dream?”

“It was the Creator of all life.”

“And who gave me sadness?”

“HE did,” they answered.

“And who gave the world hunger, pain, misfortune, sickness, death, worry, and unbearable calamity which drags us suffering to the grave?”

“He reigns,” they said.

“Give me his name!” she asked. “Who is he that does not even grant me peace in the grave?—for Hell awaits me there as a further torture, does it not.”

“He rules,” the angels replied.

“His name! I ask but his name—the name of one so cruel! Who is the one that would create man as a precious vessel, though imperfect, and then destroy this lovely creation by sickness and death in rage?”

“He is the One,” they said.

“Name him and let him be known for his vengeful name—for in my own fine dreams of man I allowed no sickness, no pain—all was love and beauty! I gave up all my powers but love. Who is he that is the source of my everlasting pain?”

“HE does not exist,” the angels finally said, “nor does the Devil, nor do we—all simply is as it is and so it ever shall be. It’s the way that the world happens to work. Therefore, all is right with the world. We angels are simply manifestations of your own thoughts. All that is truly real comes from within; nothing comes from without.”

“There is no creative deity?” she asked.

“There is none; there is only an unconscious spirit which is part and parcel with the universe, co-eternal with it and embodied in it as the principle of life in all things. It is the connectedness of all things, and exists far below the level of atoms.”

[mkirkpatrick]

I belıeve ın an ıdea beıng used by the wıll of the Absolute to brıng about a physıcal unıverse.then to expand that awesome ıdea ınto what we now call evolutıon.



regards mıchael.

[Profpat]

Well that is quite a response Austintorn. I almost agree with the conclusion at the end of Part 2. When the woman asked about the existence of a creative deity. I would have replied " There is, a Conscious Spirit which is part and parcel with the universe, embodied in it as the principle of life. God is the connectedness of all things,and exists everywhere.

I also disagree that the universe is eternal. I believe it was created via the BIG BANG and therefor not eternal.

I viewed your video LIFE and BEING. It is really quite stunning. I believe you are the type of person who can see the universe in a wild flower.

You are able to see the beauty and harmony in the universe. HHMMMM!!!

Profpat

[austintorn@aol.com]

Thanks.

The God post is just trying to remove the chaff to see if anything scientic is left. Thanks for understanding.

Our universe the way it is seems to have come from the big bang, but there was probably eternal stuff before that to cause the bang.