[Drifter]

[quote=Drifter;37410]Caveat: These are the words of A Mystic and are not meant to be perceived as indoctrination or religious. Spiritual . . . well . . . I suppose that's for you to decide.

In man five 'powers' exist, which are the agents of perception---that is to
say, through these five powers, man perceives material things.
These are;
sight, which perceives visible forms;
hearing, which perceives audible sounds;
smell, which perceives odors;
taste, which perceives foods; and
feeling, which is all parts of the body and perceives tangible things.
These five powers perceive outward existences.

Man has also 'spiritual 'powers': These are;
imagination, which conceives things;
thought, which reflects upon realities;
comprehension, which comprehends realities;
memory, which retains whatever man imagines, thinks and comprehends.

The intermediary between the five outward powers and the inward powers is
the 'sense' which they posses in common---that is to say, the sense which
acts between the outer and the inner powers, conveys to the inward powers
whatever the outward powers discern.
It is termed the 'common faculty', because it communicates between the
outward and the inward powers and thus is common to the outward and inward
powers.

For instance, sight is one of the outer powers; it sees and perceives this
flower, and conveys this perception to the inner power-the common
faculty---which transmits this perception to the power of imagination, which
in turn conceives and forms this image and transmits it to the power of
thought; the power of thought reflects and, having grasp the thought,
conveys it to the power of comprehension; the power of comprehension, when
it has comprehended it, delivers the image of the object perceived to the
power of memory, and the memory keeps it in repository.

The outward powers are five: the power of sight, of hearing, of smell, of
taste and of feeling.
The inner powers are five; the common faculty, and the powers of
imagination, thought, comprehension and memory.

[Drifter]

THE FOUR METHODS OF ACQUIRING KNOWLEDGE

There are only four accepted methods of comprehension -- that is to say, the realities of things are understood by these four methods.

The first method is by the senses -- that is to say, all that the eye, the ear, the taste, the smell, the touch perceive is understood by this method. Today this method is considered the most perfect by all the European philosophers: they say that the principal method of gaining knowledge is through the senses; they consider it supreme, although it is imperfect, for it commits errors. For example, the greatest of the senses is the power of sight. The sight sees the mirage as water, and it sees images reflected in mirrors as real and existent; large bodies which are distant appear to be small, and a whirling point appears as a circle. The sight believes the earth to be motionless and sees the sun in motion, and in many similar cases it makes mistakes. Therefore, we cannot trust it.

The second is the method of reason, which was that of the ancient philosophers, the pillars of wisdom; this is the method of the understanding. They proved things by reason and held firmly to logical proofs; all their arguments are arguments of reason. Notwithstanding this, they differed greatly, and their opinions were contradictory. They even changed their views -- that is to say, during twenty years they would prove the existence of a thing by logical arguments, and afterward they would deny it by logical arguments -- so much so that Plato at first logically proved the immobility of the earth and the movement of the sun; later by logical arguments he proved that the sun was the stationary center, and that the earth was moving. Afterward the Ptolemaic theory was spread abroad, and the idea of Plato was entirely forgotten, until at last a new observer again called it to life. Thus all the mathematicians disagreed, although they relied upon arguments of reason. In the same way, by logical arguments, they would prove a problem at a certain time, then afterward by arguments of the same nature they would deny it. So one of the philosophers would firmly uphold a theory for a time with strong arguments and proofs to support it, which afterward he would retract and contradict by arguments of reason. Therefore, it is evident that the method of reason is not perfect, for the differences of the ancient philosophers, the want of stability and the variations of their opinions, prove this. For if it were perfect, all ought to be united in their ideas and agreed in their opinions.

The third method of understanding is by tradition -- that is, through the text of the Holy Scriptures -- for people say, "In the Old and New Testaments, God spoke thus." This method equally is not perfect, because the traditions are understood by the reason. As the reason itself is liable to err, how can it be said that in interpreting the meaning of the traditions it will not err, for it is possible for it to make mistakes, and certainty cannot be attained. This is the method of the religious leaders; whatever they understand and comprehend from the text of the books is that which their reason understands from the text, and not necessarily the real truth; for the reason is like a balance, and the meanings contained in the text of the Holy Books are like the thing which is weighed. If the balance is untrue, how can the weight be ascertained?

Know then: that which is in the hands of people, that which they believe, is liable to error. For, in proving or disproving a thing, if a proof is brought forward which is taken from the evidence of our senses, this method, as has become evident, is not perfect; if the proofs are intellectual, the same is true; or if they are traditional, such proofs also are not perfect. Therefore, there is no standard in the hands of people upon which we can rely.

But the bounty of the Holy Spirit gives the true method of comprehension which is infallible and indubitable. This is through the help of the Holy Spirit which comes to man, and this is the condition in which certainty can alone be attained.

[Drifter]

Question. -- Those who are blessed with good actions and universal benevolence, who have praiseworthy characteristics, who act with love and kindness toward all creatures, who care for the poor, and who strive to establish universal peace -- what need have they of the divine teachings, of which they think indeed that they are independent? What is the condition of these people?

Answer. -- Know that such actions, such efforts and such words are praiseworthy and approved, and are the glory of humanity. But these actions alone are not sufficient; they are a body of the greatest loveliness, but without spirit. No, that which is the cause of everlasting life, eternal honor, universal enlightenment, real salvation and prosperity is, first of all, the knowledge of God. It is known that the knowledge of God is beyond all knowledge, and it is the greatest glory of the human world. For in the existing knowledge of the reality of things there is material advantage, and through it outward civilization progresses; but the knowledge of God is the cause of spiritual progress and attraction, and through it the perception of truth, the exaltation of humanity, divine civilization, rightness of morals and illumination are obtained.

Second, comes the love of God, the light of which shines in the lamp of the hearts of those who know God; its brilliant rays illuminate the horizon and give to man the life of the Kingdom. In truth, the fruit of human existence is the love of God, for this love is the spirit of life, and the eternal bounty. If the love of God did not exist, the contingent world would be in darkness; if the love of God did not exist, the hearts of men would be dead, and deprived of the sensations of existence; if the love of God did not exist, spiritual union would be lost; if the love of God did not exist, the light of unity would not illuminate humanity; if the love of God did not exist, the East and West, like two lovers, would not embrace each other; if the love of God did not exist, division and disunion would not be changed into fraternity; if the love of God did not exist, indifference would not end in affection; if the love of God did not exist, the stranger would not become the friend. The love of the human world has shone forth from the love of God and has appeared by the bounty and grace of God.

It is clear that the reality of mankind is diverse, that opinions are various and sentiments different; and this difference of opinions, of thoughts, of intelligence, of sentiments among the human species arises from essential necessity; for the differences in the degrees of existence of creatures is one of the necessities of existence, which unfolds itself in infinite forms. Therefore, we have need of a general power which may dominate the sentiments, the opinions and the thoughts of all, thanks to which these divisions may no longer have effect, and all individuals may be brought under the influence of the unity of the world of humanity. It is clear and evident that this greatest power in the human world is the love of God. It brings the different peoples under the shadow of the tent of affection; it gives to the antagonistic and hostile nations and families the greatest love and union.

See, after the time of Christ, through the power of the love of God, how many nations, races, families and tribes came under the shadow of the Word of God. The divisions and differences of a thousand years were entirely destroyed and annihilated. The thoughts of race and of fatherland completely disappeared. The union of souls and of existences took place; all became true spiritual Christians/Universalists.

The third virtue of humanity is the goodwill which is the basis of good actions. Certain philosophers have considered intention superior to action, for the goodwill is absolute light; it is purified and sanctified from the impurities of selfishness, of enmity, of deception. Now it may be that a man performs an action which in appearance is righteous, but which is dictated by covetousness. For example, a butcher rears a sheep and protects it; but this righteous action of the butcher is dictated by desire to derive profit, and the result of this care is the slaughter of the poor sheep. How many righteous actions are dictated by covetousness! But the goodwill is sanctified from such impurities.

Briefly, if to the knowledge of God is joined the love of God, and attraction, ecstasy and goodwill, a righteous action is then perfect and complete. Otherwise, though a good action is praiseworthy, yet if it is not sustained by the knowledge of God, the love of God, and a sincere intention, it is imperfect. For example, the being of man must unite all perfections to be perfect. Sight is extremely precious and appreciated, but it must be aided by hearing; the hearing is much appreciated, but it must be aided by the power of speech; the faculty of speech is very acceptable, but it must be aided by the power of reason, and so forth. The same is true of the other powers, organs and members of man; when all these powers, these senses, these organs, these members exist together, he is perfect.

Now, today, we meet with people in the world who, in truth, desire the universal good, and who according to their power occupy themselves in protecting the oppressed and in aiding the poor: they are enthusiastic for peace and the universal well-being. Although from this point of view they may be perfect, if they are deprived of the knowledge and love of God, they are imperfect.

Galen, the physician, in his book in which he comments on the treatise of Plato on the art of government, says that the fundamental principles of religion have a great influence upon a perfect civilization because "the multitude cannot understand the connection of explanatory words; so it has need of symbolical words announcing the rewards and punishments of the other world; and that which proves the truth of this affirmation," he says, "is that today we see a people called Christians who believe in rewards and punishments; and this sect show forth beautiful actions like those which a true philosopher performs. So we all see clearly that they do not fear death, that they expect and desire nothing from the multitude but justice and equity, and they are considered as true philosophers."

Now observe what was the degree of the sincerity, the zeal, the spiritual feeling, the obligation of friendship, and the good actions of a believer in Christ, so that Galen, the philosophical physician, although he was not of the Christian religion, should yet bear witness to the good morals and the perfections of these people, to the point of saying that they were true philosophers. These virtues, these morals, were obtained not only through good actions, for if virtue were only a matter of obtaining and giving forth good, as this lamp is lighted and illuminates the house -- without doubt this illumination is a benefit -- then why do we not praise the lamp? The sun causes all the beings of the earth to increase, and by its heat and light gives growth and development: is there a greater benefit than that? Nevertheless, as this good does not come from goodwill and from the love and knowledge of God, it is imperfect.

When, on the contrary, a man gives to another a cup of water, the latter is grateful and thanks him. A man, without reflecting, will say, "This sun which gives light to the world, this supreme bounty which is apparent in it, must be adored and praised. Why should we not be grateful and thankful to the sun for its bounty, when we praise a man who performs a simple act of kindness?" But if we look for the truth, we see that this insignificant kindness of the man is due to conscious feelings which exist; therefore, it is worthy of praise, whereas the light and heat of the sun are not due to the feelings and consciousness; therefore, they are not worthy of eulogy or of praise and do not deserve gratitude or thanks.

[ThirdWorld]

Please take a look and let me know about your thoughts.

*** An interesting attempt at making a link between the physical world of strings and quarks and the non-physical world of life.

My concern, however, is that we have not yet been able to sort things out in the physical realm. The theories of quarks and strings are not yet proven, in fact I don't even see them as being very correct explanations of scientific phenomena, yet you are using them to explain the non physics phenomenon of life.

I commend your effort but in my view you are on shaky ground with that theory.

Roger

[Profpat]

Originally Posted by ThirdWorld *** An interesting attempt at making a link between the physical world of strings and quarks and the non-physical world of life. My concern, however, is that we have not yet been able to sort things out in the physical realm. The theories of quarks and strings are not yet proven, in fact I don't even see them as being very correct explanations of scientific phenomena, yet you are using them to explain the non physics phenomenon of life. I commend your effort but in my view you are on shaky ground with that theory. Roger

Hi Roger;

Welcome to the forum, and thank you for your comments.

You are right it is highly speculative, but I think it is logical, given the information at hand.

I made a copy of your theory and have not read it yet but plan to. In fact I was going to contant you to request you look at my theory.

So thanks and I'll return with questions and/or comments on yours.

Best to you,

Pat

[Tina]

Originally Posted by Drifter ps I don't consider my self "a teacher", a companion, a guide maybe, we're all in the same boat, on the same trip, whether we realize It or not. Best Wishes Professor

I'm just reading through your posts - but I though I'd warn you not to ever let me in your boat - I'm bound to capsise it!

[Tina]

Originally Posted by ThirdWorld [SIZE=1 The theories of quarks and strings are not yet proven, in fact I don't even see them as being very correct explanations of scientific phenomena, yet you are using them to explain the non physics phenomenon of life.[/size] I commend your effort but in my view you are on shaky ground with that theory. Roger

BRAVO - String Theory is stringing along too many people in the wrong direction.

[ThirdWorld]

Welcome to the forum, and thank you for your comments.

*** Thanks to you too and you are welcome.

You are right it is highly speculative, but I think it is logical, given the information at hand.

*** It will be interesting to see the information that leads you to think it is logical: my view is that a theory that talks about 9 dimensions in physics and things of that nature cannot be logical. This my view, however, is based only on the sparse information of that theory that I have: I have never read the book.

Further, to merely refer to up- and down- spin of quarks as responsible for attraction between those particles without saying how they can act on each other at a distance seems to me to be wanting in logic but again I have not read all of that theory.

Why I find your theory interesting is because I have gone through an entire theory of my own that accounts for all physical phenomena but no where in that theory can I see any means by which life can be explained. It seems to me that life is either totally unrelated to matter and energy [ie it belongs to a different dimension altogether] or it is somewhat artificial [ie the same way we can develop artificial intelligence using physics a kind of artificial life based on physics is also possible and this is the life living creatures possess].

So if the latter is true then your attempts to link life to matter could be a plausible venture.

Roger

[Drifter]

Originally Posted by Tina I'm just reading through your posts - but I though I'd warn you not to ever let me in your boat - I'm bound to capsise it!

Well . . . Thank you Tina . . . I think . . .
The "boat" is a metaphor for the mind, body, organisim.
There's a lot more to a human being(m.b.o) than merely what meets the eye.
That aspect, the Unborn, bound by the cord of relative consciousness to the mbo cannot know death, what was never born will never die, so that's the end of all suffering and why Lazarus laughed when he said; "Oh harbinger of Death, wherefore now art thy sting?"
The shore (s) are the physical and the meta-physical(read spiritual for clairity)) when the other side is attained(reached), of what further need is the boat?
This can be achieved we are told before the actual demise of the mind, body, organism through a sort of, if it may so be called, a psuedo-death of the lower self or ego, this process is also what leads on to the "Christ Consciousness", I have tried to clarify something by this (some call It the No thing aka G, The Absolute, The Supreme Intelligence, etc.), I hope it isn't misconstrued.

A little rock and roll never hurt anyone . . . did it? ;o)

Namaste` Tina

ps
I haven't read your posts Tina, so I'm going out on a limb here, I know . . .

[Drifter]

ps Tina
All travelers are welcome one and all.
Have you read the parable of The Scorpion and The Frog Tina?