[Felix Schrodinger]

Originally Posted by Max™

SR and GR, much maligned and mistaken theories that they are, are not about the speed of light, or curving space. They're about Time, and how we interact with it.

Hi Max

You misunderstand me. I asked for a physical explanation of how time works. GR and SR only deal with the maths and the apparent interaction of time and space.

What actually makes time work?

regards
Felix

[Max™]

I said it is hidden within SR and GR.

Relativity is a statement about how bodies interact with time, with some other details thrown in... mass energy equivalence and curved space, whatnot...

The other details aren't important, what is important is the nature of time, this is why you occasionally hear that "Only 100 people on Earth understand The Theory of Relativity."

Time is a direction, it doesn't work, we move through it.

The sum of the past present and future exist, our point of view depends on our mass, and our velocity. So we see a slice of time, one after another. This is why Einstein said reality is an illusion, albeit a persistent one.

As you move faster, you could think of it as "skipping" slices, though actually you merely focus in on smaller slices, and observe time dilation. Same with a strong gravitational field, which, as GR explains, is equivalent to acceleration.

You can interact with time, or you can interact with space.

As you increase motion through the spatial directions, you decrease your interaction with the time direction.

As you decrease mass and velocity, I've postulated that you observe the effects we (wrongly) describe with our formulations of probabilistic quantum mechanics.

So, asking what makes time work, isn't really a valid question, like asking what makes left work.

It should be, what makes us move through time at the rate we do?

To which I say, your rest mass, and motion through threespace.


If you want an even more visceral description of why THAT happens, I've postulated it in my own thread, on the last page, which would hopefully explain better what I mean.

[Profpat]

In physics, power (symbol: P) is the rate at which work is performed or energy is transmitted, or the amount of energy required or expended for a given unit of time. As a rate of change of work done or the energy of a subsystem, power is: P = W/t
where P is power, W is work and t is time.

Therefore: t =W/P

[Profpat]

According to the work-energy theorem if an external force acts upon an object, causing its kinetic energy to change from Ek1 to Ek2, then the mechanical work (W) is given by:[2]
where m is the mass of the object and v is the object's speed

W = Change in kinetic energy = 1/2m change (v squared )

Therefore time is also a function of energy, or the change in mass.

[Max™]

What determines the rate of time measured in that change, is what I think he was getting at.

[Profpat]

In physics, the treatment of time is a central issue. It has been treated as a question of geometry. One can measure time and treat it as a geometrical dimension, such as length, and perform mathematical operations on it. It is a scalar quantity and, like length, mass, and charge, is usually listed in most physics books as a fundamental quantity. Time can be combined mathematically with other fundamental quantities to derive other concepts such as motion, energy and fields. Time is largely defined by its measurement in physics.

[Profpat]

SUNRISE, SUNSET, ONE DAY.

[Fredrick]

Originally Posted by dipayankar

Do you believe that the three spatial dimensions are expanding into the time dimension (as we pass that point in time). Hence we can't move back. I am still wondering as to why we cant move faster into future if we want to.

The framework is most important (and I believe Max is rightfully delivering his words in this respect), and it places Time as belonging to a greater framework than that of universal matter. Just to show that others have thought about time a long time already: the ancient Greeks placed Chronos as the father, and Zeus as the fifth son that Chronos did not get to eat (because hidden by mother Gaia), and who later defeated his father. If you recognize chronology in the name Chronos then a reference to time as coming before what was later more powerful, then you can see a position of time that predates space.

Whether mass moves through space or not, Time is ticking, and we may presume it was ticking already before the Big Bang. That means the framework needs to be understood as more potential than the framework of Energy/Mass.

I hope you understand the reversal that this position indicates, because mass is therefore less malleable than time. To specifically indicate what time is in light of Space is then not required (as I believe — actually hope — Max indicates) because it is not a spatial entity. We only need to describe what role it plays/how it functions within its own framework. And with Time being more malleable it will adjust to matter and not the other way around.

The three spatial directions are static entities that are not expandable, they simply continue on; they are abstract directions (I consider it bad use of language to call them dimensions). To connect Time with Space, both must first be seen as independent frameworks.

Just like I give Space a 2D+ framework, I give Time a 2D+ framework. It uses what Now is not in order to frame the Now. The two dimensions of time are past and future, and Now does not belong to the (abstract) framework, it exists within the framework. The same way, matter is not 3D (three directional), it 'merely' exists within that framework. Matter's properties are best understood when viewed from the in&out perspective. To get back to Time, Now is an angular entity within the framework; some say angular because of matter, I say angular because matter will not cease to exist. And with that I mean that Matter in place as it is, is the lock to the door behind which Time is kept in place. The door is not going to be unlocked, time will no stop (as was possible before the Big Bang). Time exists because of Time, but it is kept on going because Space is in control. Zeus defeated his father.

Originally Posted by Felix Schrodinger

I believe that the cosmic background radiation is not a leftover from the big bang. It's the mechanism of time - the sound of the clock ticking. Current thinking has virtual particles coming into existence by borrowing energy and then repaying it as they disappear. But there is no explanation as to what is their purpose. I'm proposing that these virtual particles are necessary for the collapse of the wave function and hence the production of real matter particles (fermions). If they are regular, and I propose that they are, then that explains the meaning of 'now'. It's the point of emission of these virtual particles (chronons) and as we are made from real particles we experience 'now'.

PS - has anyone seen or heard of a physical explanation for the mechanism of time anywhere?

I don't think there is a necessary contradiction in your words, Felix, though I also not agree fully with you. The cosmic background radiation as being the Big Bang and the collapse you mention of the wave function can be seen as the same picture (though I would not frame my words this way). Also, with dark energy and matter, there is an enormous bank out there from which the energy that particles require could have been borrowed, and as far as I know no repayments have ever been made, except possibly those as exchange for new energy at the same rate.

Again, I claim connecting the two frameworks need to be done with care; they cannot be morphed into a single new overall framework in which one fully explains the other. Even matter at Point X (the center spot of the universe), that is not moving at all through space, is nevertheless moving through time. Even if there is no matter at Point X, there is space at Point X , and it only moves through Time. Movement of Time is bigger (— of a bigger framework) than movement of Space. Your question is therefore a question that contains a trick of the mind.

Originally Posted by Max™

The other details aren't important, what is important is the nature of time, this is why you occasionally hear that "Only 100 people on Earth understand The Theory of Relativity."

Personally, Max, I think a whole lot more people would get GR if it was explained in normal words. Too bad that scientists aren't the best users of language. It simply means that there is a fundamental level at which object A and object B are not-linked, have nothing to do with one another except in as far as they cannot be at the same time at the same place (or neighborhood) and remain the same unrelated entities. Space and Time can therefore interact but only in as far as they are in each other's face. As an example, the question whether Time is absolute was answered by using two atomic clocks, one on earth and one in space: time is not absolute. Yet it did not answer in how far Time of one (earth) was completely loose from the Time of the other object (rocket in space). According to me, relativity is itself relative as well (because taking place in the same large non-static framework). As the example shows, it can bend indeed, but it will bend itself again also backwards to correct itself to remain within a range when/where needed. Walking from the center of a landmass to the ocean may be done spatially in a straight line, time wise there may be many bends to it. If time is a river, it can meander, go faster or slower in some spots, or eddy forever, and even create shortcuts if the circumstances are right.

[Max™]

I was indeed saying that Time is more fundamental than Space.

Time, for example, is required for Consciousness.

I'm seeking to explain SR/GR in normal language, further extrapolate the nature of time.

I've been considering adding a Foreword to my Simply Relativity, to explain to the reader the meaning of time within Relativity, as it is something which I often forget is not commonplace.

[Profpat]

[quote=Max™;68804]I was indeed saying that Time is more fundamental than Space.

Time, for example, is required for Consciousness.

I believe time, space and motion are all equally fundamental. Time is the measurement of how long it takes for something to move through space. Without space there would be no consciousness. You need space and time for those little neurons to move.

All three were created simultaneously at the moment of the big bang. You can't have movement without creating space, and it takes time to move.

"In the beginning ( TIME )...and the Spirit of God ( SOMETHING ) was moving ( MOVEMENT ) over the face of the waters" ( SPACE ).