An Idea

[Fredrick]

All nice and well, but can we ponder about gravity a bit more without immediately having to think about STDs?

Please follow this example: I am on a train and hold a rock in my hand, and my hand is outside the window and then I drop the rock; the rock follows the direction of the train, but since it is no longer held up it therefore also drops to the ground. The explanation for the drop to the ground is stated as gravity.

If the earth is held in place by both speed and gravitational pull of the sun, does that mean the rockets we send to Mars are countered in such manner that they don't fall towards the sun? Please inform me if that is the case, because at this moment I think the rockets are not gravity-countered on their trips. Is the sun that strong gravitational body that holds earth in its orbital place or not? Are space rockets steered so they are not pulled in by the gravity of the sun? Are they extremely light so gravity has no grasp?

Does this mean there are forces out there that are unseen by our instruments? Allow me to go on a little question-trip here, because I can find easy examples of our instruments only seeing what they can see.

For instance, an instrument can measure light quite easily in the day time (several cameras have that ability build-in), yet not even the most light-sensitive instrument can measure the stars in the day time (stars of the non-Hollywoody kind). Only at night when sunlight is absent in the sky do the stars become visible (and measureable this way).

Have our instruments traveled the solar system far enough to be outside the influences of the forces we do not notice? Have we mapped all capabilities of our instruments correctly?

For instance, magnetism is considered a force, but does it have a nearby- and a far away component? Asteroids are attracted to Jupiter, for instance, because it is the largest magnetic body in the solar system. Currently the explanation is that asteroids are attracted to the sun, but then veered towards Jupiter (and it therefore providing a nice umbrella for earth in this kind of shower) due to the magnetic characteristics of Jupiter. What if they are attracted by Jupiter right away - long distance?

Do our instruments measure only the nearby aspects of the forces? Do galaxies bath in their own collective ensemble of relatively far away aspects of the forces?

If gravity is not a force but a phenomenon (a phenomenon that is based on the four forces E, M, WN, and SN), then asteroids would be attracted due to magnetism in our solar system or a combination of the forces within our solar system. How would we know if magnetism has a far away component? We and our instruments have never been far away. It's like taking pictures of the stars in broad daylight, and we are using instruments that exist within the realm, not outside the realm of such far away magnetism.

How do we know about the characteristics of the four forces? Through measurements. Yet while these measurements are not in doubt by me, are they exclusive measurements? Can we say that no information means indeed no information, or is lack of information the indication that we have not captured the entire picture?

[G_burnett]

[quote=Fredrick;79914]All nice and well, but can we ponder about gravity a bit more without immediately having to think about STDs?...

quote]

lol... yeah ... i was laughing so hard at the picture I did nor read the fine print .. then said what the H leave it up there ...

[Fredrick]

Okay, now that we cleared that out (no, really, it was funny!):

Here is another question: What is the most important collective aspect to a galaxy?

[Mohan.C]

But, if our instruments are built upon the credibility of equations. If the equations hold good for all kind of measurements, then our instruments are also good.
But, if the equation is only for short distance magnetism, then long distance will be wrong measurement.
Since, it's not, then the influence of long distance magnetism by Jupiter on asteroids, is negligible. I guess that's why we use tending to zero, and not just 'zero'.

[G_burnett]

Okay, now that we cleared that out (no, really, it was funny!):

Here is another question: What is the most important collective aspect to a galaxy?

wave creation of matter

[Max™]

Dark Matter is the main part of a Galaxy.

What we see is like a swirl of dust in a drop of water.

The water is massive and determines where the dust goes, the dust is shiny and easy to see, unlike the water (though the water DOES affect the light some).


Yes you have to take into account the suns influence when you launch any rocket.

If you removed all of the bodies from the solar system except the Sun, and then magically created a rocket ship the same distance as the Earth would have been, it would fall towards the Sun.

If the Earth disappeared, we would all fall towards the sun.

If you suspended a sheet across the room you're in now, at the height of your desk, and secured it to the walls so it was taut and level, and placed a grapefruit in the middle, it would stretch the sheet some.

If you then rolled a marble across the sheet so it just missed the grapefruit, at just the right speed, it would loop around several times and resemble an orbital trajectory (but air resistance/rolling resistance screws it up and makes it fall into the grapefruit quickly).

If you then rolled ball bearings across the sheet so they intersected the trajectory of the marble, they would get caught in it's dimple on the sheet if they weren't going too fast/the marble was heavy enough relative to the ball bearings.

If you suddenly removed the marble, any ball bearings it had trapped would fall towards the grapefruit.

If you made a mechanism to sling a ball bearing from that marble to another marble, if you didn't take into account the presence of the grapefruit, your ball bearing would miss the targeted marble.



Edit: you can take pictures of stars during the day, the sun simply floods the atmosphere with so much light that it is difficult.

If there was a nearby nova, it would be quite visible during the day, as would a binary partner for the sun.

Our furthest instrument to date was pioneer as I recall, which passed the Heliopause a while back (the point where the solar wind no longer overcomes the general galactic dust/medium, and you get something like a bow-shock effect), and noted no strange long distance effects of forces.

I actually think you have it backwards though, the forces are mere phenomena, not primal aspects of reality... just topological influences of spacetime at varied scales.

[G_burnett]

But, if our instruments are built upon the credibility of equations. If the equations hold good for all kind of measurements, then our instruments are also good.
But, if the equation is only for short distance magnetism, then long distance will be wrong measurement.
Since, it's not, then the influence of long distance magnetism by Jupiter on asteroids, is negligible. I guess that's why we use tending to zero, and not just 'zero'.

Jupiter may have distance effect in the enrichment of ions in the tail of Jupiter being passed through by asteroids .. thus a condenser effect on the smaller orb then having greater potential of energy events later.

I do not like the use of zero other then a set of values on the Planck or [+(>0)] value IMHO

Kind regards g.

[Fredrick]

What is the most important collective aspect to a galaxy?

Wave creation of matter.

No. Try again.

[Fredrick]

What is the most important collective aspect to a galaxy?

Dark Matter is the main part of a Galaxy.

No. try again.

[Fredrick]

If you suspended a sheet across the room you're in now, at the height of your desk, and secured it to the walls so it was taut and level, and placed a grapefruit in the middle, it would stretch the sheet some.

If you then rolled a marble across the sheet so it just missed the grapefruit, at just the right speed, it would loop around several times and resemble an orbital trajectory (but air resistance/rolling resistance screws it up and makes it fall into the grapefruit quickly).

If you then rolled ball bearings across the sheet so they intersected the trajectory of the marble, they would get caught in it's dimple on the sheet if they weren't going too fast/the marble was heavy enough relative to the ball bearings.

If you suddenly removed the marble, any ball bearings it had trapped would fall towards the grapefruit.

If you made a mechanism to sling a ball bearing from that marble to another marble, if you didn't take into account the presence of the grapefruit, your ball bearing would miss the targeted marble.

I actually think you have it backwards though, the forces are mere phenomena, not primal aspects of reality... just topological influences of spacetime at varied scales.

Good image, Max; I like it. And thank you, Graham and Mohan for the further information on what happens to a rocket through space/Jupiter's magnetic attraction. Yet the question remains whether the grapefruit and marble impressions represent the effects of gravity as an entity by itself or represent the effects of the collective forces. Gravity in that latter perspective would then be nothing but the phenomenon we experience, while based on the four forces (E, M, SN, WN), similar to the fact that 'forest' is an entity based on trees and not itself.

In this light I pose the question: What is the most important collective aspect to a galaxy?