An Idea

[dipayankar]

Okay let me give you a real life scenario here. In India it is madatory that devotees remove their shoes while entering a buddhist temple. However in Taiwan I saw devotees go into the prayer hall with their shoes on. So when I asked the guide, she told me ' what difference does it make? It is only a building'

You are saying all the right words, Pat, but I am surprised to read from your responses that you are unwilling to see that the pyramid is just what it is: a structure. Only the contents make the pyramid be an actual something.

And as I said before, we have to climb the pyramid each of us starting at a specific position; it cannot be done any other way. To reach the top, we do not let go of our experience, and there is no need for that. In top, we can view the whole.

The religious part, I have no problems there, Pat, your belief is sacred.

The structure, however, is not sacred; it's just a structure. We all know that in math 2 + 3 = 5, but I cannot say that 2 people and 3 conversations make a 5 of some kind. Only 2 people and 3 people make 5, and only 2 conversations and 3 conversations make 5.

No matter how important the person, or how important the conversation, the math is just the naked structure. Math does come with a few requirements, but math does not dictate value; it shows the structure of value.

When I say 2 + 1 = 3, then I do not expect you to reply that Jesus is the one. One has nothing to do with the other. The math is empty, naked, with nothing else to show for than the abstract structure behind it all.

But if you want to place your belief in a math structure, actually you can. It is still the same naked structure. One prayer and two prayers are together three prayers.

[Profpat]

Okay let me give you a real life scenario here. In India it is madatory that devotees remove their shoes while entering a buddhist temple. However in Taiwan I saw devotees go into the prayer hall with their shoes on. So when I asked the guide, she told me ' what difference does it make? It is only a building'

I really like her answer Dipayankar.

[Fredrick]

The time and place to use the pyramid is when we want to view the whole. The view you have may be different from the view another person has about the whole. The result of the view depends on bringing something or not bringing something. You are bringing something, Pat: your belief.

Unless we are proclaiming something about all beliefs, the pyramid is not really available, because the specific view is then not based on the actual overall information alone.

It comes down to language, Pat. A belief hangs in the air, because it is upheld by the owner of the belief. A pyramid stands on the ground and shows that a single top can be held in the air through support, but the single top can itself not stand on the ground without support.

[Profpat]

Of course you are assuming the pryamid actually exist. So isn't your assumption really based on faith Fredrick?

[AntonioLao]

Profpat,

Referring to #3548: the radii of the linked tori must contract to 1 dimension to approach a Hopf topology. The 2nd image which is the same as your avatar is not the simplest knots but the 1D above it is, the Hopf link is the simplest knot. And my educated guess is that nature uses it to describe squares of energy for the quantization of the spacetime continuum.

[Fredrick]

That is a cute way of getting away from the true naked character of the abstract, Pat. As said, the structure is not an independent actual thing, just like 2 + 3 = 5 cannot be an independent actual something. Still, the structure really exists without it being a something.

The essential nature of a belief is that the holder must consider it as true. If there are any doubts, then the belief either stops being a belief or it has at least been weakened. I am not after weakening your belief, Pat. I want you to hold on to it.

Yet the overall view, the pyramid of beliefs is one in which your belief has a specific position. Other positions are the polytheist view and the atheist view (which is the belief that there are no gods or god). These are just -like yours- overall views. And just like your tripod of positions, the pyramid of beliefs is essentially some kind of tripod. Still, the pyramid has four positions, and the fourth is that position taken in as true that one cannot know one way or the other. This agnostic position, too, is a belief.

So, while I want you to hang on to your faith, I want you to be aware of the pyramid structure that you cannot use just for your faith. The only appropriate overall view is that view that incorporates all. You may have to swallow some pride (but not your belief) to give the other beliefs a position, but that is how pyramids work. No truly overall view, then no pyramid. You can use the pyramid for just your belief, but then you have to not fill in the blank.

If you don't want to use the pyramid, no problem, but it would be like stating that you don't want to use math because 2 + 3 = 5 is witchery.

[Profpat]

I'm not trying to be cute Fredrick. I'm trying to get at the truth. As posted here before, only 1% of the proton mass is from the mass of the 3 quarks, the rest is just the dynamics ( energy ) of the interactions. If quarks are composed of strings then we are approaching 0 mass. Which means Feynman is right when he stated all mass is interactions. Einstein said reality is an illusion, albeit a persistent one. So much for your foundational structure Fredrick, with or without contents, sorry.

So my question to you sir, are you seeking the truth, or are seeking a way to prove your theory. The two may not necessarily be the same thing.

And don't worry about my FAITH, it's the REAL thing, and that reality is what is permanent.

Best,

Pat

[Fredrick]

I'm not trying to be cute Fredrick. I'm trying to get at the truth. As posted here before, only 1% of the proton mass is from the mass of the 3 quarks, the rest is just the dynamics ( energy ) of the interactions. If quarks are composed of strings then we are approaching 0 mass. Which means Feynman is right when he stated all mass is interactions. Einstein said reality is an illusion, albeit a persistent one. So much for your foundational structure Fredrick, with or without contents, sorry.

So my question to you sir, are you seeking the truth, or are seeking a way to prove your theory. The two may not necessarily be the same thing.

And don't worry about my FAITH, it's the REAL thing, and that reality is what is permanent.

No worries, Pat, if you don't want to use math, you don't have to. I am not going to force you. Truth: faith and math have nothing to do with one another. Faith cannot change math, math cannot change faith.

Yet mixing the two up in a single overall view as if they do have something to do with each other, that is the recipe for not getting the answer. I will admit that people with one-eye blind can do corrective things to see depth (which is not easy, but also not impossible).

If you cannot separate the apples from the sum, then you cannot do it, Pat. There is nothing else to it. I cannot make people who cannot distinguish between red and green see the difference, not in a 100 years. They don't see it; it's in their genes. And that's all there is to it.

I am seeking the truth, and declare I have found a truthful structure. But speaking is a two way process. Without an ear that can hear there is little use for words.

And really, if you cannot distinguish the difference between contents and context: no biggie! It won't infere with your life in any way. It just makes it close to impossible to communicate about everything, that's all. I am not after your faith, I am after its structure.

[Profpat]

Thanks Professor,
I've never been good with big or little words, but I'll keep on a tryin.

I believe you nailed the big word right on MJA.

Best,

Pat

[Profpat]

I agree with you Fredrick it's useless.

Best,

Pat