[Profpat]

Originally Posted by N0B0DY Exactly, Pat, it's the absolute universe. The operative word to the point in question is "obviously" which is based on relative observational processes that govern thoughts, and thoughts are abstract, not "things."

Hi Nobody;

I'll agree thought is not a physical thing, but it is a thing, it's a thought, albeit an abstract thing.
In other words it's not Void or nothing.

Best to you,

Pat

[Profpat]

thing (thng) KEY

NOUN:

1. An entity, an idea, or a quality perceived, known, or thought to have its own existence.

[Drifter]

Originally Posted by Profpat Hi Nobody; I'll agree thought is not a physical thing, but it is a thing, it's a thought, albeit an abstract thing. In other words it's not Void or nothing. Best to you, Pat

Is it[thought] a real thing?

Is the word "thing" really "the" thing, any more than the "thought" of a some thing is that some thing?

If it is not physical is it not real?

Is "real" only what we can see, taste, touch, hear and/or smell?

[N0B0DY]

Hence the reason for proclaiming there is no "reality" there. It doesn't have its own existence, as would the non-existent noumena, but is a dependent phenomena based on the reduction of absolute speed.

If you consider absolute speed as equivalent to "nothing," then it may be easier to picture how sensory phenomena can be extracted as illusory perspectives.

[Drifter]

http://books.google.com/books?id=EJc-yQgFmRoC&pg=PA271&lpg=PA271&dq=the+i+thonght+as+et ernal&source=web&ots=lGBKM7GDpP&sig=RigM2fxGA7yhvE dClrWMZpnt3yE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_return

[Profpat]

Hi Guys;

I REALLY don't want to get into a philosophic discussion here on semantics, but I find a thought is a REAL THING. You may disagree and thats OK.

re·al1 (rl, rl) KEY

ADJECTIVE:

1. 1. <LI type=a>Being or occurring in fact or actuality; having verifiable existence: real objects; a real illness. <LI type=a>True and actual; not imaginary, alleged, or ideal: real people, not ghosts; a film based on real life.
   2. Of or founded on practical matters and concerns: a recent graduate experiencing the real world for the first time.
2. Genuine and authentic; not artificial or spurious: real mink; real humility.
3. Being no less than what is stated; worthy of the name: a real friend.
4. Free of pretense, falsehood, or affectation: tourists hoping for a real experience on the guided tour.
5. Not to be taken lightly; serious: in real trouble.
6. Philosophy Existing objectively in the world regardless of subjectivity or conventions of thought or language.
7. Relating to, being, or having value reckoned by actual purchasing power: real income; real growth.
8. Physics Of, relating to, or being an image formed by light rays that converge in space.
9. Mathematics Of, relating to, or being a real number.
10. Law Of or relating to stationary or fixed property, such as buildings or land.

Best to all,

Pat

[Drifter]

What about, say . . . the "I" thought?

Originally Posted by Profpat Hi Guys; I REALLY don't want to get into a philosophic discussion here on semantics, but I find a thought is a REAL THING. You may disagree and thats OK. re·al1 (rl, rl) KEY ADJECTIVE: <LI type=a>Being or occurring in fact or actuality; having verifiable existence: real objects; a real illness. <LI type=a>True and actual; not imaginary, alleged, or ideal: real people, not ghosts; a film based on real life. Of or founded on practical matters and concerns: a recent graduate experiencing the real world for the first time. Genuine and authentic; not artificial or spurious: real mink; real humility. Being no less than what is stated; worthy of the name: a real friend. Free of pretense, falsehood, or affectation: tourists hoping for a real experience on the guided tour. Not to be taken lightly; serious: in real trouble. Philosophy Existing objectively in the world regardless of subjectivity or conventions of thought or language. Relating to, being, or having value reckoned by actual purchasing power: real income; real growth. Physics Of, relating to, or being an image formed by light rays that converge in space. Mathematics Of, relating to, or being a real number. Law Of or relating to stationary or fixed property, such as buildings or land. Best to all, Pat

[Profpat]

Originally Posted by Drifter What about, say . . . the "I" thought?

I'm a little confused here Drifter. I'm not sure what you mean by the ' I " thought.

Also I have no problem with the concept of Eternal Return ( Your link ). I don't know if it's true, but it could be.

Best,

Pat

[N0B0DY]

All your examples are unprovable outside of the philosophical rendering you cited - #6. - and even that alleged "objective existence" must be based on subjective processes.

The only means of proving there is no objective reality beyond a reasonable doubt is by logical implication. That reality can be said to exist within non existence; it can be said that a house can exist with no outside.

Just because you feel it, doesn't make it real; and just because we can refer to abstracts as real, like "real numbers," doesn't make them real either.

[Profpat]

Originally Posted by N0B0DY All your examples are unprovable outside of the philosophical rendering you cited - #6. - and even that alleged "objective existence" must be based on subjective processes. The only means of proving there is no objective reality beyond a reasonable doubt is by logical implication. That reality can be said to exist within non existence; it can be said that a house can exist with no outside. Just because you feel it, doesn't make it real; and just because we can refer to abstracts as real, like "real numbers," doesn't make them real either.

I'm really getting lost now guys. I guess the universe can exist with no outside