An Idea

[Fredrick]

Plato's concept of the Good is perhaps similar to my concept of God. It cannot be understood, comprehended, defined or even imagined by man. Yet it is the Prime Idea that started it all.???????

Best to you Fredrick,

Pat

Again, Pat, this is a matter of using linguistics as an escape; still, it is basically stating what I am stating. Where I identify the imperfection of whatever exists (materially or spiritually), you merely use that imperfection to state an imperfection exists in knowledge.

Either way, we have an imperfection that permeates all. I identify it but subsequently I leave it at that, where you use the imperfection but subsequently do not want to identify it.

In the older religions of the world, we see the same as what I am stating. In Hinduism, there is a god of all (Brahman) yet this god is not found in the forefront, but at the furthest distance possible.

Or in the old Norse religion, where Odin hung himself off the tree of life, creating with that act his renewed self and all the other gods.

What these religions have done is identifying the actual reality we see around us. They provide the words to the reality that exist, even all the way up to god.

In the middle-eastern monotheistic religions that conquered much of the human world, we find a 'covering up' of the imperfection we find in our reality.

In Judaism, there is actually no perfection stated, except for the possibility of it occurring some day in the future. As such, Judaism is also a correct delivery of our reality, including the desire for that perfection.

In Christianity, however, a step too far is taken (and no one to stop Christians from taking that step) in which the material manifestation of god already occurred in a single person. As we know from Islam, their take on it is that such step is a step too far, and their person explaining the whole is not a personification of god, but the spokesperson of god.

I hope you recognize where your religious reality finds its origin.

P.S. Plato did not believe in a singular god, nor was the highest god, Zeus, known to be perfect.

[Fredrick]

SINGULARITY

.

DUALITY

TRINITY

OUR ESSENCE

[Profpat]

Hi Fredrick;

The imperfection is You, I, our universe. The creation was theoritically imperfect. But if the creation was perfect there would have been absolute annihilation and we would all be back in the Void. It's only because there was a little more matter than antimatter, and a little quantum fuzziness that allows us to be.

So here is the question; is this imperfection perfect? i.e. without imperfection you can't have creation. It is because I am in and part of this imperfect world that I cannot understand the Perfect.

You are right about Plato. It was, I believe, Whitehead who equated Plato's GOOD with GOD.

Best

Pat

[austintorn@aol.com]

The next WMAP satellite, quite a ways off, may determine if the universe is cyclical.

[Profpat]

A MAGNIFIED LOOK AT THE " BIG BANG " POINT

[Profpat]

OUR UNIVERSE

It's the smallest thing, it's the largest thing;
It's the most peaceful thing, it's the most violent thing;
It's a wonderful thing, and the most beautiful thing is man and earth.

[Fredrick]

Hi Fredrick;

The imperfection is You, I, our universe. The creation was theoritically imperfect. But if the creation was perfect there would have been absolute annihilation and we would all be back in the Void. It's only because there was a little more matter than antimatter, and a little quantum fuzziness that allows us to be.

So here is the question; is this imperfection perfect? i.e. without imperfection you can't have creation. It is because I am in and part of this imperfect world that I cannot understand the Perfect.

You are right about Plato. It was, I believe, Whitehead who equated Plato's GOOD with GOD.

Best

Pat

I believe we are in agreement, Pat, which makes me happy. The imperfection of our universe is real, and the question whether that is perfect or not is secondary. If we agree on this, then we have the correct hierarchy in place, even the hierarchy about god.

With this knowledge, we can then start finding the ToE, and wild ideas can then be the first things that can go out the window. Perfection as a potential state may indeed be seen as part of the mix, but perfection at the overall level all by itself cannot be thrown into the mix. The higher entity is always imperfection.

If the original god is seen as the source, then only that god can be placed in top, but not the current. Imperfection took over the place where the original god was positioned, and if there is a god now, he or she must take in the lower position (in light of the previous god). Perfection can be recreated, but perfection cannot be the whole. If you place perfection in top, then the universe is automatically seen from an inside-out perspective.

The ToE is not meant to be a well-balanced delivery of beginning and end; the ToE is the actual theoretical delivery about everything as it stands today and that explains how we have gotten to this point.

If we agree on this, then we have made a major step towards getting the ToE.

[Profpat]

Hi Fredrick;

Well I guess we agree that it is an imperfect universe. As far as God: No comment.

My overall conjecture for a ToE is :

1) It's a cyclic universe.
2) Strings are the FS.

Scenario.

In the beginning when everything was condensed into a most dense energy point, BANG, an implosion that sends into the Void, tiny but very energetic vectors. Which I'll call strings. These strings are the ether that expands, indeed, creates the space. They can inflate faster than light because they are not massive.

Some of these energy vectors ( srings ) looped back thus creating a quark, which is massive, contained energy. These quarks became the building blocks of our visible universe.

The dark energy are those strings ( energy vectors ) still expanding, creating our space from the Void.

The dark matter are free quarks. These would have gravitational influence and yet be nearly undectable.

The quarks that did combine in 3 make up our proton/neutron our visible universe.

It is those 8 dynamic domains or fields within the proton/neutron, that I believe holds the key to our inner dynamics.

And so I believe the universe will keep on expanding until enough dark energy converts to dark matter to bring on the reversal of this cyclic universe.

Only to be ultimately compacted. To arise again in a renewed rebirth.

Best,

Pat

[Fredrick]

Thank you, Pat, for what is becoming a more and more completed image. And while I had a little giggle about your 'no comment' in discussing the issue of god, I do feel the need to tell you we are not getting to the bottom of it all. Of course the divine issue is tough to discuss if we have invested ourselves in a certain version, but that is not really what I miss. Basically, you are not providing us the why or the how the universe as you see it got started. That means further details you provide later miss a fundamental support.

In your words, I read about a condensed beginning and a bang and an implosion into the void. Yet I do not read anything about explanatory reasonings why this occurred. In our universe it is normal to look at the result and at least try to postulate what happened, why we got this result. If you do not provide this, then there is no ToE. I am fine with the cyclical universe (though I do not think it is the correct answer), but I'd like to hear how this got started. What are your arguments about the starting point that then also need to contain the inherent reason for the reversal? I am willing to have an open mind, but you need an incredible amount of perfect reasoning to come up with something that starts and then becomes cyclical to the point it ends and starts up again.

In a way, this is the issue of god. But if you can answer the question without going into divine details, that would have my preference. Yet I must ask you to refrain from using the 'no comment' option when discussing the ToE. 'No comment' -whichever way intended- will never do; 'no comment' always falls short of a ToE.

[Profpat]

Hi Fredrick;

My own PERSONAL opinion is that God created the universe; and my image of Him, through Jesus, is that he is a loving Father. This is part of my An Idea.

However, since this is a science forum and you asked, I gave my Opinion as to how this could happen, this time eliminating God, and showing how a cyclic universe could explain it.

This is saying everything is energy, it never was created, it is eternal. It's eternal nature is expansion and contraction. And so that is what it does. This is where we see duality in nature.

Now I believe that the dark energy ( EXPANSION ) will eventually become dark matter ( CONTRACTION ) and reverse the expansion process. It will then start the contraction process. GIVEN ( I don't know why ) massive objects attract.

It eventually reaches once again it's massive limit point, ( as you pointed out there is a limit to IN, so then OUT ) BANG. Once again the Phoenix has arisen from the ashes.

In the mean time due to some quantum fuzziness You, I and the visible universe was formed ( A byproduct ) to this Eternal Expanding/Contracting Movement.

Again this process never started, it never stops, it's eternal. ( Something we humans can't comprehend )

Best,

Pat