An Idea

[Benedict Broere]

Hello Profpat,
There is nothing metaphysical about 'emergence'. It is something you meet when looking at complex processes. And its saying that cartesian analytical method isn't sufficient for explaining researchable reality: we also have to look at the phenomena themselves - and not just their components, and components-components, etcetera - in trying to explain them, their properties, their behaviour, their different ways of being.

[Drifter]

[quote=Tina;34979]

Hi Tina;

You'll have to access my Idea at;( [url]
[size=2]But please do, when you can, as I would love to hear your comments.

No trouble accessing. Had a quick read through to get gist before go back and study in more detail. But quantum maths (if that's what it is?) know nil so leaves me unable to understand these sections fully.

1) Scenario: 1 proton, 1 neutron and 1 electron meet one day and they decide that if they worked together they could achieve everything. So they formed a particle and have remained in this alliance ever since. Why does the alliance adhere...while all known alliances break down eg chemical change.

2) If constant change (I Ching) how are you defining " constant" "change"?

I think it's also known as The Theory of Chaos?
Only the "Nothing" stays the same and contains all things.
Everything is Realities Nothing.

[Drifter]

[quote=Profpat;35009]

Hi Tina;

Two good questions:

1) Science says the quarks stay together because of " gluons " . My model doesn't require them, I have them confined by their own superposing and interweaving. But you are right my model is a compound model requiring smaller particles to stay fixed. The evidence is that the proton cannot be destroyed, why this is I'm not sure, but you have a good question.

2) The I Ching is called the Book of Changes.
It's a divination text which tries to give one guidance, as to where one is going, and how to best prepare for those changes.

And so the changes are constantly going on.

Now to the physical the quarks ( gluons ) are constantly changing from one color to the other.

3) Thank you for taking time to read and comment on my Idea.

Best to you,

Pat

In the model of the double helix and on the grander scale the torus there is a involution/convolution vortex that brings and maintain the adherency, it could also be surmised as the law of attraction I suppose. just a thought . . .
the microcsm is a reflection of the macrocosm, in a holographic universe.

[Drifter]

Hi Pat and Tina,

I am not too familiar with the quark theory but I just wonder if the gluons are not gravitational strings. I do not think they are the elusive graviton particles because I believe they do not exist. So the gluons would not be visible particles but they could still exist and have a gravitational effect on the quarks.

My Toe theory of the physical universe, as you know Pat, is based on the theory that the photon is a stable, preserved virtual mass particle, moving constantly at the speed of light, and consisting of two equal but opposite preserved forces and energies, gravitational and kinetic. The photon also known as a quantum particle is more basic or fundamental than the quark particle because I think it is the most basic stuff of the universe. I think the quark particle consists of quantum particles and this could be in a blackhole formation. What do you think? I am sure that the quantum particle must have something to do with quarks?

Yours Cosvis.

for your perusal . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoLvO...related&search

[Profpat]

Hi everyone;

Austin once again a big thanks for getting my Idea out of the bowels of adobe.

Thanks Drifter for that link, I put it in my bookmark because I find it to be very interesting. I think your post on youtube is really great. you should check it out guys, it's like a blue man group creation story.

Benedict;
What you giveth you also taketh away. I was so pleased with your emergence, possibly explaining awareness; and then you taketh away. OK.

I have to admit it is a quantum leap from proton to consciousness.

Here are my thoughts on the matter.

Physically I think it's on pretty solid ground.
Strings, 3 quarks, color force, proton.

But I wanted a theory of everything, from big bang to man. I think, what is the essential part of my theory, is trying to explain the dynamics of man. Not only physically, but also mental and emotions, had to be addressed.
To do that required going metaphysical, and the I-Ching fit perfectly into the Venn diagram.

Notice how the 3 primary colors, are represented by the 3 sons, who make the 3 complementary colors, represented by the three daughters. Notice also how the females are made from the RIB structure of the males. In the center is the I-Ching trigram for Father- Heaven. And as I pointed out in my Idea the mathematical octants matches perfectly with the I-Ching trigrams.

Given this, I adopted the I-Ching into my model and Bang, I have a sense of family now, and emotions and images ( imagination ).Now I have the makings for a man.

So back to my Idea:

Physically I eliminated the 8 gluons, I don't need them, and I believe the electron is a projection from the proton, causing a ripple or field in space. Additionally, it's my belief that the strong and weak force can be explained by the positive/negative areas on the proton/neutron. When you stack them too much they reach their limit on bonding and will discharge an alpha particle.

And so you move, see, hear, touch, taste, smell.
But your movement is limited, like the quarks, and you are confined to your body, like the quarks.

We have a very old foundation in our evolution called the family. ( All mammals have this ).
And we have emotions and so on, where does that come from. My theory is that everything you are right now Benedict, was present when those protons which make up your body right now, were formed at the creation. Yes, as you know the protons in your body are the original, right from the big bang.

So I'm not sure how awareness came to be, any more than I know how strings came to be.
I guess this is where my faith and beliefs come to play.

BTW I agree, I have to dress it up and get it too some theoritical physicist who may look at it.

I also have this post on emergence and a web link if you are interested in the entire article from a couple of professors from, Lehigh University.
Reduction and Anti-reduction

A particle and property metaphysics tempts us to think that the only real causality is found at the micro-particle level. If so, then anything that is a resultant of those particle interactions working their way within some initial or boundary condition constraints is most fundamentally due to those particle causal powers and particle interactions. Everything else is epiphenomenal to that, and can be eliminatively reduced to it -- perhaps with the caveat of the cognitive limitations of human beings to handle the complexities required. In this cognitive view, higher levels are necessary considerations only because of their relative cognitive simplicity for humans, not for any metaphysical or even physical reasons.
The link is: ( http://www.lehigh.edu/~mhb0/emergence.html )

Best to all,

Pat

[Drifter]

Hi everyone;


Thanks Drifter for that link, I put it in my bookmark because I find it to be very interesting. I think your post on youtube is really great. you should check it out guys, it's like a blue man group creation story.

I really do appreciate your investigation and sharing of oyur labor of love Profpat,

I found so many similarities in your "work" that appear to have a direct corelative to my own, for example (and I hope you find something of interest or parallel to your own in-vestigation . . . and therefore, useful. (but you'll have to look closely)

though our paths may differ somewhat in that one appears ephemeral while the other ethreal....(the scene and the unseen)

I believe they are actually One, merely appearing as two . . .

Living the 'reality' of the illusion is my now. -D.


http://ifdawn.com/

http://www.kheper.net/topics/Hermeticism/Qabalah.htm

http://www.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/Sefirot/Sefirot.html

http://www.1800ketubah.com/giclee_collection/Kabbalah/main.html

http://www.crystalinks.com/kabala.html

[Profpat]

Hi everyone;

Drifter;
Thank you for those links and interest and help. I now have some readings for this weekend.

Benedict;
Further research on my part yielded the concept of QUALIA. perhaps that is in the proton that I described in my Idea;
Qualia

First published Wed Aug 20, 1997; substantive revision Tue Jul 31, 2007
Feelings and experiences vary widely. For example, I run my fingers over sandpaper, smell a skunk, feel a sharp pain in my finger, seem to see bright purple, become extremely angry. In each of these cases, I am the subject of a mental state with a very distinctive subjective character. There is something it is like for me to undergo each state, some phenomenology that it has. Philosophers often use the term ‘qualia’ (singular ‘quale’) to refer to the introspectively accessible, phenomenal aspects of our mental lives. In this standard, broad sense of the term, it is difficult to deny that there are qualia. Disagreement typically centers on which mental states have qualia, whether qualia are intrinsic qualities of their bearers, and how qualia relate to the physical world both inside and outside the head. The status of qualia is hotly debated in philosophy largely because it is central to a proper understanding of the nature of consciousness. Qualia are at the very heart of the mind-body problem.

Also I just want to tell you Benedict that to me there are three great miracles, or divine intervention;
1) Creation
2) Life
3) Intelligent Life

I have no idea how these came to be other than GOD, and being a theist, I have no problem with that explanation, though I realize that is highly personal.

Best to all,

Pat

[Drifter]

[quote=Profpat;37031]Hi everyone;

Drifter;
Thank you for those links and interest and help. I now have some readings for this weekend.

Consider this Profpat;

and I ask your forgiveness for my banter Sir,

The self assumption of the thinking mechanism is to justify it's own existence is The Grandest illusion of all. (who was it that first coined the phraze, "I'd rather rule on Earth that serve in Heaven"?)

In man five ‘powers’ exist, which are the agents of perception---that is to say, through these five powers, man perceives material things.
These are;
sight, which perceives visible forms;
hearing, which perceives audible sounds;
smell, which perceives odors;
taste, which perceives foods; and
feeling, which is all parts of the body and perceives tangible things.
These five powers perceive outward existences.

Man has also ‘spiritual ‘powers’: These are;
imagination, which conceives things;
thought, which reflects upon realities;
comprehension, which comprehends realities;
memory, which retains whatever man imagines, thinks and comprehends.

The intermediary between the five outward powers and the inward powers is the ‘sense’ which they posses in common---that is to say, the sense which acts between the outer and the inner powers, conveys to the inward powers whatever the outward powers discern.
It is termed the ‘common faculty’, because it communicates between the outward and the inward powers and thus is common to the outward and inward powers.

For instance, sight is one of the outer powers; it sees and perceives this flower, and conveys this perception to the inner power—the common faculty---which transmits this perception to the power of imagination, which in turn conceives and forms this image and transmits it to the power of thought; the power of thought reflects and, having grasp the thought, conveys it to the power of comprehension; the power of comprehension, when it has comprehended it, delivers the image of the object perceived to the power of memory, and the memory keeps it in repository.

The outward powers are five: the power of sight, of hearing, of smell, of taste and of feeling.
The inner powers are five; the common faculty, and the powers of imagination, thought, comprehension and memory.

‘Common sense’ as defined by Abdul l baha.

I mean there are three realms of "Consciousness" or Being no? The Gross, Subtle and Casual?
The Gross Realm or the territory of the ego.
The Subtle Realm, that of Spirit and Matter.
The Causal or Divine/Universal.
And

THE FOUR METHODS OF ACQUIRING KNOWLEDGE

There are only four accepted methods of comprehension -- that is to say, the realities of things are understood by these four methods.

The first method is by the senses -- that is to say, all that the eye, the ear, the taste, the smell, the touch perceive is understood by this method. Today this method is considered the most perfect by all the European philosophers: they say that the principal method of gaining knowledge is through the senses; they consider it supreme, although it is imperfect, for it commits errors. For example, the greatest of the senses is the power of sight. The sight sees the mirage as water, and it sees images reflected in mirrors as real and existent; large bodies which are distant appear to be small, and a whirling point appears as a circle. The sight believes the earth to be motionless and sees the sun in motion, and in many similar cases it makes mistakes. Therefore, we cannot trust it.

The second is the method of reason, which was that of the ancient philosophers, the pillars of wisdom; this is the method of the understanding. They proved things by reason and held firmly to logical proofs; all their arguments are arguments of reason. Notwithstanding this, they differed greatly, and their opinions were contradictory. They even changed their views -- that is to say, during twenty years they would prove the existence of a thing by logical arguments, and afterward they would deny it by logical arguments -- so much so that Plato at first logically proved the immobility of the earth and the movement of the sun; later by logical arguments he proved that the sun was the stationary center, and that the earth was moving. Afterward the Ptolemaic theory was spread abroad, and the idea of Plato was entirely forgotten, until at last a new observer again called it to life. Thus all the mathematicians disagreed, although they relied upon arguments of reason. In the same way, by logical arguments, they would prove a problem at a certain time, then afterward by arguments of the same nature they would deny it. So one of the philosophers would firmly uphold a theory for a time with strong arguments and proofs to support it, which afterward he would retract and contradict by arguments of reason. Therefore, it is evident that the method of reason is not perfect, for the differences of the ancient philosophers, the want of stability and the variations of their opinions, prove this. For if it were perfect, all ought to be united in their ideas and agreed in their opinions.

The third method of understanding is by tradition -- that is, through the text of the Holy Scriptures -- for people say, "In the Old and New Testaments, God spoke thus." This method equally is not perfect, because the traditions are understood by the reason. As the reason itself is liable to err, how can it be said that in interpreting the meaning of the traditions it will not err, for it is possible for it to make mistakes, and certainty cannot be attained. This is the method of the religious leaders; whatever they understand and comprehend from the text of the books is that which their reason understands from the text, and not necessarily the real truth; for the reason is like a balance, and the meanings contained in the text of the Holy Books are like the thing which is weighed. If the balance is untrue, how can the weight be ascertained?

Know then: that which is in the hands of people, that which they believe, is liable to error. For, in proving or disproving a thing, if a proof is brought forward which is taken from the evidence of our senses, this method, as has become evident, is not perfect; if the proofs are intellectual, the same is true; or if they are traditional, such proofs also are not perfect. Therefore, there is no standard in the hands of people upon which we can rely.

But the bounty of the Holy Spirit gives the true method of comprehension which is infallible and indubitable. This is through the help of the Holy Spirit which comes to man, and this is the condition in which certainty can alone be attained.

[Drifter]

more banter-
THE NECESSITY OF FOLLOWING THE TEACHINGS OF THE DIVINE MANIFESTATIONS

Question. -- Those who are blessed with good actions and universal benevolence, who have praiseworthy characteristics, who act with love and kindness toward all creatures, who care for the poor, and who strive to establish universal peace -- what need have they of the divine teachings, of which they think indeed that they are independent? What is the condition of these people?

Answer. -- Know that such actions, such efforts and such words are praiseworthy and approved, and are the glory of humanity. But these actions alone are not sufficient; they are a body of the greatest loveliness, but without spirit. No, that which is the cause of everlasting life, eternal honor, universal enlightenment, real salvation and prosperity is, first of all, the knowledge of God. It is known that the knowledge of God is beyond all knowledge, and it is the greatest glory of the human world. For in the existing knowledge of the reality of things there is material advantage, and through it outward civilization progresses; but the knowledge of God is the cause of spiritual progress and attraction, and through it the perception of truth, the exaltation of humanity, divine civilization, rightness of morals and illumination are obtained.

Second, comes the love of God, the light of which shines in the lamp of the hearts of those who know God; its brilliant rays illuminate the horizon and give to man the life of the Kingdom. In truth, the fruit of human existence is the love of God, for this love is the spirit of life, and the eternal bounty. If the love of God did not exist, the contingent world would be in darkness; if the love of God did not exist, the hearts of men would be dead, and deprived of the sensations of existence; if the love of God did not exist, spiritual union would be lost; if the love of God did not exist, the light of unity would not illuminate humanity; if the love of God did not exist, the East and West, like two lovers, would not embrace each other; if the love of God did not exist, division and disunion would not be changed into fraternity; if the love of God did not exist, indifference would not end in affection; if the love of God did not exist, the stranger would not become the friend. The love of the human world has shone forth from the love of God and has appeared by the bounty and grace of God.

It is clear that the reality of mankind is diverse, that opinions are various and sentiments different; and this difference of opinions, of thoughts, of intelligence, of sentiments among the human species arises from essential necessity; for the differences in the degrees of existence of creatures is one of the necessities of existence, which unfolds itself in infinite forms. Therefore, we have need of a general power which may dominate the sentiments, the opinions and the thoughts of all, thanks to which these divisions may no longer have effect, and all individuals may be brought under the influence of the unity of the world of humanity. It is clear and evident that this greatest power in the human world is the love of God. It brings the different peoples under the shadow of the tent of affection; it gives to the antagonistic and hostile nations and families the greatest love and union.

See, after the time of Christ, through the power of the love of God, how many nations, races, families and tribes came under the shadow of the Word of God. The divisions and differences of a thousand years were entirely destroyed and annihilated. The thoughts of race and of fatherland completely disappeared. The union of souls and of existences took place; all became true spiritual Christians/Universalists.

The third virtue of humanity is the goodwill which is the basis of good actions. Certain philosophers have considered intention superior to action, for the goodwill is absolute light; it is purified and sanctified from the impurities of selfishness, of enmity, of deception. Now it may be that a man performs an action which in appearance is righteous, but which is dictated by covetousness. For example, a butcher rears a sheep and protects it; but this righteous action of the butcher is dictated by desire to derive profit, and the result of this care is the slaughter of the poor sheep. How many righteous actions are dictated by covetousness! But the goodwill is sanctified from such impurities.

Briefly, if to the knowledge of God is joined the love of God, and attraction, ecstasy and goodwill, a righteous action is then perfect and complete. Otherwise, though a good action is praiseworthy, yet if it is not sustained by the knowledge of God, the love of God, and a sincere intention, it is imperfect. For example, the being of man must unite all perfections to be perfect. Sight is extremely precious and appreciated, but it must be aided by hearing; the hearing is much appreciated, but it must be aided by the power of speech; the faculty of speech is very acceptable, but it must be aided by the power of reason, and so forth. The same is true of the other powers, organs and members of man; when all these powers, these senses, these organs, these members exist together, he is perfect.

Now, today, we meet with people in the world who, in truth, desire the universal good, and who according to their power occupy themselves in protecting the oppressed and in aiding the poor: they are enthusiastic for peace and the universal well-being. Although from this point of view they may be perfect, if they are deprived of the knowledge and love of God, they are imperfect.

Galen, the physician, in his book in which he comments on the treatise of Plato on the art of government, says that the fundamental principles of religion have a great influence upon a perfect civilization because "the multitude cannot understand the connection of explanatory words; so it has need of symbolical words announcing the rewards and punishments of the other world; and that which proves the truth of this affirmation," he says, "is that today we see a people called Christians who believe in rewards and punishments; and this sect show forth beautiful actions like those which a true philosopher performs. So we all see clearly that they do not fear death, that they expect and desire nothing from the multitude but justice and equity, and they are considered as true philosophers."
[1 Cf. Ibn Abi Usaybia, Uyun al-anba fi tabaqat al-atibba (Cairo: 1882) tom. I., pp. 76-77.]

Now observe what was the degree of the sincerity, the zeal, the spiritual feeling, the obligation of friendship, and the good actions of a believer in Christ, so that Galen, the philosophical physician, although he was not of the Christian religion, should yet bear witness to the good morals and the perfections of these people, to the point of saying that they were true philosophers. These virtues, these morals, were obtained not only through good actions, for if virtue were only a matter of obtaining and giving forth good, as this lamp is lighted and illuminates the house -- without doubt this illumination is a benefit -- then why do we not praise the lamp? The sun causes all the beings of the earth to increase, and by its heat and light gives growth and development: is there a greater benefit than that? Nevertheless, as this good does not come from goodwill and from the love and knowledge of God, it is imperfect.

When, on the contrary, a man gives to another a cup of water, the latter is grateful and thanks him. A man, without reflecting, will say, "This sun which gives light to the world, this supreme bounty which is apparent in it, must be adored and praised. Why should we not be grateful and thankful to the sun for its bounty, when we praise a man who performs a simple act of kindness?" But if we look for the truth, we see that this insignificant kindness of the man is due to conscious feelings which exist; therefore, it is worthy of praise, whereas the light and heat of the sun are not due to the feelings and consciousness; therefore, they are not worthy of eulogy or of praise and do not deserve gratitude or thanks.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 296)
By Way of the Pen
turning the Ether to Ink,
Drifter

[Benedict Broere]

On this 'emergence', the following is I think also very interesting:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/properties-emergent/

But to say it very simple: the traffic in the US can't be explained out of the plugs and pistons in the respective vehicles, because this traffic repesents a complexity with patterns of order that cannot be found in plugs and pistons. Similar we meet in minerals, cells, organisms, etctera. This is why it is highly unlikely that human behavior can be explained out of quarks. Nature is telling us another story. And about possible intervention by God... I don't know for sure if there is a God. And if there is a God, I don't know for sure if intervention is possible. Etcetera. In the end you meet an enigma. But I do know for sure that looking for order in the world of quarks might lead to something, at least as we found lot's of order in the past, that at least looks as if it really has something to do with reality. So Profpat, keep up the good work !