An Idea

[Drifter]

quote=rybot;44507]Drifter, I too believe that all fermions and bosons have some degree of conscious awareness ergo some degree of consciousness, however, there distnctioins to be made.

All the physical stuff is "spirit". A biological/soul is one such distinction that I make and at is commonly taught in all deucational formats, that i'm aware of, barring the one-to-one association with "soul" that I make.

There is only a 'you' and 'me' [seperation] because of this duality [on the physical plane-as Gods gift to man] and "relative consciousness" has us hypnotized, entranced, bewitched to the point we've forgotten we have an immortal aspect [god-like] that only evolves as we reconise it.

You also appear to believe there is somthing called "ensoulment" which I understand you too mean that there was something with no soul/biological life content and then all of sudden it does.

The soul comes "into being" at the moment of conception, at this point the Creative Force aka soul [relative consciousness is energized with spirit[Awareness] and when the brain has developed, matured enough it will re-member.

This is where you and I differ i.e. I think the trinity/triune that I've laid out is eternally existent or at mimimum there exists eternally a gravitational, spacetime mapping for such for all spirit and biollogicals/souls to become manifest physically.

In this latter sense spirit and biological/soul equate to gravitational spacetime as being( functioning as ) the quasi-physical buffer-zone, existent at ultra-micro-scales, and between the metaphysical and the physical.

1) metaphysical macro-infinite spatiality beyond the finite physical universe but also transposes( one-to-one ) as --i.e. has subcatagory therof-- asbstract concepts of mind.

2) spirit when patterned as biological/soul with access to metaphysical mind --to varying degrees-- transposes( one-to-one ) as the quasi-physical gravitational spacetime buffer-zone between physical and metaphysical.

3) physical fermions and bosons and any aggragates thereof.

As for your comments of "facts of truth" that you experineced first hand, I don't recall exactly what it is your talking about Drifter. Sorry.

Out Of Body experience [not to be confused with near-death].

Rybo




QUOTE=Drifter;44498]"Spirit " can be ensouled. As man can be ensouled. One is physical and one is metaphysical.
In seperation one has an affinity for physical/ephemeral/and mortality. [and an aversion to the other]
One has an affinity for for the metaphysical/etherical/immortality. [and an aversion to the other]
I believe even the single celled omeba is constructed of molecules and elements, which have a conscious [ness] aversion or affinity to others of the same plane, and a morphing, if you will into a new substance. Similar to but different from the former on the evolutionary ladder. Two but not two.

Experiences can also be mis-believed because the observing/listening to the explanation/storyformula/diagram has no direct knowledge of what is being related too.

as i said before i have experienced it first hand, you dismiss this "fact of truth" if you wish, but it will not influence me and and what I know from the experience.

some have eyes to see and ears to hear and,
some don't.[/quote][/quote]

[Profpat]

Thats Ok Pat. You tried. I think I'm going to mostly have to skip going any further with you on this thread. I think most of what I have to share with you is going to be "a bit to complex". Sorry good luck with your "idea".

Rybo
[/quote]

Thanks for your help Rybo. In your quest don't forget the principle of Occam's Razor.

Best to you,

Pat

[Drifter]

Imagine a circumference with a point in the center.
Draw and imaginary line from the center to anywhere on the circumference.
The center represents The Creative Force, God, or Awareness.
The circumference represents the known, the visible and sensual.
The radius represents the soul of mankind.
Now imagine many such lines projectig from the same center to different points along the circumference. 101, 1001, 1 million and 1, or an infinite number of souls[things with a spark of awareness], manifesting materially on the outer circumference.
Now imagine this cenario involuting and evolving forth within a torus, and a Supreme Awareness who/that idealized this into Being.

A Wheel of Life, if so it might be said.

This is My overview.

[Profpat]

It's a good overview Drifter.

Also in your prior post, somethings can only be experienced directly, such as God's Grace or Out of Body experiences. they do not lend themselves to descriptions in that they transcend language.

Best to you,

Pat

[rybot]

RY) Drifter, I too believe that all fermions and bosons have some degree of conscious awareness ergo some degree of consciousness, however, there distinctions to be made.
All the physical stuff is "spirit". A biological/soul is one such distinction that I make and at is commonly taught in all deucational formats, that i'm aware of, barring the one-to-one association with "soul" that I make.

DR) There is only a 'you' and 'me' [seperation] because of this duality [on the physical plane-as Gods gift to man] and "relative consciousness" has us hypnotized, entranced, bewitched to the point we've forgotten we have an immortal aspect [god-like] that only evolves as we reconise it.

Hey Drifter, there s speration/differrentiation because of varying scales of interference ergo varing scale of frequency i.e.EM-Radiation goes from very long frequencies to very short frequencies.

Relative consciousness i.e. *real/physical* consciousness is vehicle to access metphysical mind any "immortal"( eternal ) truths.



RY) You also appear to believe there is something called "ensoulment" which I understand you too mean that there was something with no soul/biological life content and then all of sudden it does.


DR) The soul comes "into being" at the moment of conception, at this point the Creative Force aka soul [relative consciousness is energized with spirit[Awareness] and when the brain has developed, matured enough it will re-member.

Drifter, I agree that there is a new soul that comes into being, however, that new soul is but aggregate of two other souls --i.e. the egg and the sperm--.

"Creative Force" is a another new one from you. Like your "life force", I would say there is no evidence for such.

You do appear to be coming around to my view of spirit having a physical aspect via your above comment "energized with spirit".

Memory is indeed crucial for the creative aspects of consciousness.

RY) This is where you and I differ i.e. I think the trinity/triune that I've laid out is eternally existent or at mimimum there exists eternally a gravitational, spacetime mapping for such for all spirit and biollogicals/souls to become manifest physically.

In this latter sense spirit and biological/soul equate to gravitational spacetime as being( functioning as ) the quasi-physical buffer-zone, existent at ultra-micro-scales, and between the metaphysical and the physical.

1) metaphysical macro-infinite spatiality beyond the finite physical universe but also transposes( one-to-one ) as --i.e. has subcatagory therof-- asbstract concepts of mind.

2) spirit when patterned as biological/soul with access to metaphysical mind --to varying degrees-- transposes( one-to-one ) as the quasi-physical gravitational spacetime buffer-zone between physical and metaphysical.

3) physical fermions and bosons and any aggregates thereof.

As for your comments of "facts of truth" that you expeieneced first hand, I don't recall exactly what it is your talking about Drifter. Sorry.


Out DRI) Of Body experience [not to be confused with near-death].

Ok, glad to see you responded to my query here. It appears that you have experienced an "out of body experience".

I have experience out of body phenomena many times in my sleep. The first time I dreamed of flying sort of left me feeling "oh that was cool" but also, sure don't want that one to get confused with my conscious states.

I'm not sure of any significance of your "oob" experience or why it had entered into our disscussion.

Please feel free to elaborate.

Rybo






QUOTE=Drifter;44498]"Spirit " can be ensouled. As man can be ensouled. One is physical and one is metaphysical.
In seperation one has an affinity for physical/ephemeral/and mortality. [and an aversion to the other]
One has an affinity for for the metaphysical/etherical/immortality. [and an aversion to the other]
I believe even the single celled omeba is constructed of molecules and elements, which have a conscious [ness] aversion or affinity to others of the same plane, and a morphing, if you will into a new substance. Similar to but different from the former on the evolutionary ladder. Two but not two.

Experiences can also be mis-believed because the observing/listening to the explanation/storyformula/diagram has no direct knowledge of what is being related too.

as i said before i have experienced it first hand, you dismiss this "fact of truth" if you wish, but it will not influence me and and what I know from the experience.

some have eyes to see and ears to hear and,
some don't.[/quote][/quote][/QUOTE]

[rybot]

Thanks for your help Rybo. In your quest don't forget the principle of Occam's Razor.

Thanks for the reminder Pat. I can assure you have not forgotten and that it indirectly, it was basis for my own GUTOE.

However, there is a message with some quotes within it, I received recently that you, I and others might want to also remmeber:;;;


....""*Arthur) Ockham's Razor has always bothered me.

It reminds me of the well-known Sherlock Holmes quote, which is nearly its opposite and is equally flawed,

"when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"

The logic doesn't hold up. You can eliminate the impossible and be left with many possibilities, only one of which might well be the truth.

And then there's

Mencken's Maxim
There's always an easy solution to every human problem-****neat, plausible, and wrong.

and

Grossman's Comment
Complex problems have simple, easy-to-understand wrong answers.


Rybo

[Profpat]

Those are funny quotes Rybo.

Here is a little cartoon dealing with the subject.

[Drifter]

Unlike "scientists", philosophers do not need anyone else's approval/agreement/back-up for something which is inherently difficult to fathom, unless it is experienced. Mind cannot grasp it, it comes by way of grace. And most scientist are to concrete of mind to be able to experience it. [and It's a phenomenon only to the unexperienced]
There was a time when science was simply a branch of philosophy like mathematics and astrology, all in agreement and accord.

Ockham's razor

Methodological principle of parsimony in scientific explanation. Traditionally attributed to William of Ockham, the principle prescribes that entities are not to be multiplied beyond necessity. In practice, this means that if a phenomenon can be explained without assuming the existence of an entity, then philosophers and scientists should not assume the entity's existence. The history of science provides many examples of the principle's application (e.g., the rejection by scientists of the hypothesis of a luminiferous ether in response to Albert Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity). See also materialism.

Thats Ok Pat. You tried. I think I'm going to mostly have to skip going any further with you on this thread. I think most of what I have to share with you is going to be "a bit to complex". Sorry good luck with your "idea".

Rybo

Thanks for your help Rybo. In your quest don't forget the principle of Occam's Razor.

Best to you,

Pat[/quote]

[Profpat]

Yep, you have experienced it Drifter.

As far as William of Ockham, he was a friend of mine. I remember him telling me, "Pat you sure do complicate your life" . Poor old William met his end, when like in the 20th century they tried to eliminate ether prematurely, he tried to eliminate God as being unnecessary, that really ticked off the Catholic Church.

I guess he never experienced God's Grace directly.

Best to you Drifter,

Pat

[Drifter]

Oh I'm sure he eventually did Professor, probably after much "gnashing of teeth"!
We stand in judgement of our "self", in the eventual Light of Truth. Eventually this will come to pass for all those whom are seperatists, here and now. [simply because they won't listen, or don't see, imho][ and understandably so because most would not recoginse the truth, if it bit them in the ass][I know, I was once my 'self']

just curious Prof, ever read "The Razor's Edge" by W. Sommerset Maugham?

Best to you Professor

ps, the story of your friend reminds me so much of Tolstoy's "Confession". have you? it's a wonderful confession, and a delightful read. [although Tolstoy was more fortunate than your friend]

Yep, you have experienced it Drifter.

As far as William of Ockham, he was a friend of mine. I remember him telling me, "Pat you sure do complicate your life" . Poor old William met his end, when like in the 20th century they tried to eliminate ether prematurely, he tried to eliminate God as being unnecessary, that really ticked off the Catholic Church.

I guess he never experienced God's Grace directly.

Best to you Drifter,

Pat