An Idea

[Bogie]

Its strange Bogie, but I seem to have been born with an aversion to religion. For me, since a small child I only had faith in a very private and personal God. As I have had quite abit of existential angst in my life I can only attribute my survival to a deep inner strength I had to pull up from deep within my own faith.

The only solution I can see to those who want to indoctrinate is not to attack their religion but suggest to them they undergo a study into the history of their religion. That way you expose a way but you leave the decision up to the other person. I tried that with my young nephew and he did go to the nearest University and undertake a study....he was in shock to discover the truth but did come back to say thanks...

Regards Mikal

IMHO the personal God or inner depth are the true source of faith, even for those who adhere to a particular religion. And it is not only religion that indoctrinates. It is religion, it is ideology, it is power and wealth, it is charisma, it is influence, it is media, everywhere we are being swayed this way and that.

What is missing is a consensus on a core set of values that transcend all of those special interests. Self reliance, self respect, respect for parents, respect for others. These things can be impressed on individuals as they learn how to cope with life in hopes that some of it will stick when they are off into the world of special interests. A grim hope when one sees the way things have turned since WWII. You more than most could say the causes of the decline in those things I think should be impressed and emphasized.

[Mikal]

Well said Bogie!! What I did was study the history of religion, I studied cults to understand charisma, I studied social movements to understand ideology, I studied class systems to understand wealth, power and the levels of a class system, I studied political science to understand how the media is used for influence over the minds of the masses.

There is no consensus on a core set of values because that is what most social movements seek to destroy. You cannot change the base of a society unless you dispel consensus on values. Its an old communist trick as old as man himself..the Media is a powerful tool in the destruction of all respect whether it be for respect of others or respect for families or simply respect for life...

We are indeed in perilous times in our history. It is just that not all see that. If it happens to fall on your shoulders it becomes your responsibility and accountability...not all understand that either....

Regards Mikal

[Profpat]

Hi bogie and Mikal;

I have a great idea how about teaching the masses to honor their parents, to love one another, to have charity, not to kill, not to steal, and not to lust or desire or to covet.

Oh I forgot that already has been done but replaced in that religion is the opium of the people, so do what ever the hell you want to do.

Best,

Pat

[Bogie]

Hi Professor, And we know how well the alternative has worked too.

I remember back in the sixties when I was in high school, one of the hot topics for our debate team was federal aid to education, yes or no. My steady at the time was on the team and so I got a contact exposure to the topic but really didn't realize the impact of the issue at the time. Of course it would help to improve the education in places where the local communities couldn't afford all the teachers, facilities, and materials. It is a worthy redistribution of wealth to that extent. But it turned out to be a tool to take the education out of the hands of the parents and community. That contributed to a decline in local participation and a relaxing of standards in many communities, at least that is my perception.

[austintorn@aol.com]

"…what we actually perceive are our brain's models of the world. They are not the world itself, but, for us, they are as good as.

Yes, indeed.

KNOWLEDGE ABOUT REALITY AND OF REALISM:
Knowing Where There is and Where There Isn't
And How We Know

That we only see the inside of our brain
Is certainly true and is also fun to explain,
Our senses detecting some of the emanations
And forming representations of them—
Even painting a finer face upon them.

As for our knowledge of the reality that’s out there
We have a very excellent understanding there,
For, not only do our instruments measure it bare,
But we use the data derived from it out there
To make great models and formulas,
Which in turn we utilize to design and construct
Many intricate and working devices out there
All made from material that’s out there—
That precisely depend on what’s out there,
And, so, this proves that we know reality,
Even its quantum mechanical nature, really.

Is there really macro-realism, then?

Yes, it is for certain that there is macro-realism,
Meaning that it has pre-existing properties;
For example, your couch’s properties,
Such as its color, remain the same
No matter how and when you observe it, sane;
Thus, the moon and the earth are still there
Even without one’s observing stare;
They are even seen to have progressed,
As some things have changed or moved.

Now, what about micro-realism,
Such as for quantum entities?
Is it true that there isn’t any?

Well, it’s no surprise that there’s no realism there,
That is, there are no pre-existing properties,
Such as polarity, spin, and position, and more,
As was always thought to be the case;

For, recently, it’s been proved all the more
(Bell’s previous tests only having shown
That either locality or realism was wrong
But not knowing which one it was),
The first IQOQI test being 3 orders of magnitude
Against any realism being within the quantum realm,
With a second, and, much better, test resulting
In an amazing 80 orders of magnitude against.

So, it is still that quantum entities
Have no pre-existing properties,
Just being a superposition of possible properties,
Which, too, was expected, as well, due
To their necessarily causeless realm
With nothing prior possibly there
To dictate any specific, definite state,
They being completely outside of all cause,
As they must be—where the bucks stops;
For, what good would but more possibility be,
Plus, regresses could not reach infinity.

This is again bad news for the Super-Potions,
Those ever wishful and imagined Notions.

Large, macro entities “wave-collapse” in an instant;
But micro, quantum entities remain in limbo’s state
Indefinitely, unless they interact or are observed,
In which they randomly gain definite properties.

The other entities, which are those in between,
At the boundary of the macro and the micro,
Such as, perhaps, a spec of dust, settle down,
Spending less than a second dancing around.

So, only beyond the causeless quantum realm
Does then the “cause and effect” come to be
And, then, whatever happens has direction,
But for any more quantum happenings to them.

Now, why do the quantum’s
Vibrating fluctuations have to be?

It is that nonexistence cannot be;
Thus, something has to be.

[Lloyd Gillespie]

Adulthood is growing up and realizing the cutting circus, is a game__to eliminate the over-subjective, lame...

[Mikal]

Hi bogie and Mikal;

I have a great idea how about teaching the masses to honor their parents, to love one another, to have charity, not to kill, not to steal, and not to lust or desire or to covet.

Oh I forgot that already has been done but replaced in that religion is the opium of the people, so do what ever the hell you want to do.

Best,

Pat

Hi Prof…if our discussion last night offended your sensibilities about your own faith, I do apologize. I agree that the purpose of the church and religion has in the distant past ensured that all that you mention, became the shared consensual value of a congregated group, but I guess we do all agree that something went terribly wrong, and that something was not committed by the people in the group or community, it was those who do the governing of the institution itself.

When I said that I had a young aversion to religion, that was a conflictional situation for me because my parents taught me through love and the nuns taught me through hate. My parents did not beat me but the nuns did. Young kids do clash with those conflictional situations and begin to figure things out. That’s why just God became personal and private because I took the concept of God out of the structure and put it into my heart.

Presently as we face this worldwide recent scandal, my heart does go out to all of the faithful who have to face shocking things concerning a ready-made faith they never thought to question. I do respect that a person’s faith means something to their life and whereas I have respected my sister’s needs for religion and left them to follow those urges—we are now sharing quiet walks and I am finding that I have to be especially thoughtful with their own present conflictions—I guess the best we can do is support patiently and lovingly as things continue to break down.

Respectfully Mikal

[melanie]

Thus, the moon and the earth are still there-Even without one’s observing stare. - Austin.

That's because there in no-one observing it, it only exist in the naming of it... via 'conceptual thought' or consciousness.

No earth or moon has ever been seen, the concepts earth and moon are only known, by the only knowing there is and that is consciousness.

The one that knows moon and earth ie: Consciousness) - IS the moon and earth, subject and object can only ever be one thing.

Now the daft question is, how could one thing exist? - it doesn't - ''Life is an illusion albeit a persistent one'' Uncle Albert was right.

Conceptual thought creates the gap within the flowingness.

In the naming.....reality is cut apart and 'things' are born.

When the self is factored out by Awareness.

The gap,which never was,closes,and the flowingness,now undisturbed
continues it's journey back into ''The Original Quiescence'' = Nothing, nothing ever happened.



What 'appears' is actually a manifestation of brains inverted process.

'Things' are disappearing....our brains construct 'after the fact' time/space
although it appears to be moving towards some point is actually 'In Reverse'

'Reality' is that which 'has been'


Happy thoughts
Mel.

P.S. it takes a lot of deep thinking to come up with ideas like these.

[Profpat]

Hi Mikal;

No offense taken. As most members are aware I am not pro organized religion, far from it. I won't throw the baby out with the bath water however. The teachings of the Christ and the Buddha, the message in the Gita, Upanishads, Vega, Tao, etc., have much wisdom and if followed FREELY would be the worlds saving Grace, much more than any scientific breakthrough, IMHO.

It was once upon a time in America where most People could profess their faith in PUBLIC institutions, Congress, Supreme Court, Schools, Counties, Cities, etc. But thanks to the bastard lawyers at the ACLU that is no longer the case. GOD is dead, in America, the Atheist won. No longer One nation under God now it's One nation under Greed.

Best,

Pat

[Mikal]

I could not agree more Prof! I guess the worldview is that God is dead...but not dead in my heart, maybe the only place to have God.

With this big meltdown concerning our collective loss of faith in Institutional Society, have you given it any serious thought how we should build bridges of understanding through it?? Just curious...

Regards Mikal