[N0B0DY]

Originally Posted by Fluent Piffle

It feels as though people are allowing themselves to get caught up in the 'turf-wars' of 'science versus religion'. Such division may be the Real death of us all, not to mention all the other creatures who have to exist in whatever mess we leave behind. (And that will include our own children, of course!).

This is a great point, pif, because people have been destroying each other for millennia and perhaps then existence is not 'as perfect as it can be' based on what we can see.

Yet, eventhough this world is irreparably-damaged, there is a personal escape attainable by dying daily, and with practice escaping death altogether. Folks simply forget how old we really are when they're born.

[melanie]

Originally Posted by Fluent Piffle

I understand 'perfection' as a subjective 'wishful' mind-state, and you are not yet convincing me otherwise.

There can be no 'mirror', or anything else actually existing as 'motionless'.

Being a 'no-mind' is what makes us destroy each other. This is the kind of 'belief' that manipulates people into wars. Or perhaps Humans at war IS us being our 'true selves'?

A 'no-conceptual-mind', I might understand better...but we still have to live and exist as finite beings on a finite Planet, and thus we still also need as much 'Real-mind' as we can muster.

I do understand your conceptualisations, but you will not convince anyone of anything with a One-sided stance. If you do not find a way to correlate the 'All' AND the 'many', you will still have some kind of 'opposition' (to your own finiteness) going on. The Reality, 'good' or 'bad' that we ourselves create, we ourselves must learn how to deal with, learn from. Pretending that everything is all 'sweet and lovely' is just more make-up. It will not lead to any 'utopian' vision. All attempts such as these have started with the same 'good intentions' ways, and crumbled in self-destruction as a consequence of being poorly informed, or 'One-sided'. We can only work with everything else, and we can only work with the current language of the times. 'Now,here'...remember? We must therefore find language within ourselves that suits everybody...not just 'nobody'.

It feels as though people are allowing themselves to get caught up in the 'turf-wars' of 'science versus religion'. Such division may be the Real death of us all, not to mention all the other creatures who have to exist in whatever mess we leave behind. (And that will include our own children, of course!).



pif.

Nobody is destroying anybody, nobody is killing anybody, it is all just a play, a game, the play of leela, illusion, dream,
heaven or hell is here on earth, when we SEE .. [ourselves] [her] [god]
'we' are the perfect brilliant stillness in the movement,
and vice versa,
this has nothing to do with mind, religion or anything else,
this is about SEE-in 'we' are the SEEN 'we' can look at ourself [self-aware] [mirror]

there is no language .. there is no mind .. there are no things ..
there is no-one writing words on a computer screen

there is only KNOWING [one with the knowing] [understanding]

we know very well when the mirror is pristine we will SEE with crystal clear eyes
when the mirror is dusty like ripples on a lake there will be distortion in seeing

no ripples [clear perfect image reflection]
apparent ripples [distortion]

if we don't want distortion don't cause ripples

there is no pretense .. there is no one-sidedness .. there is no utopian vision ..
there are no turf wars .. there is no science and religion ..
there are no people or children ..

all these are just concepts, turned into things via sensation sensed and re-cogized then imaged and given meaning forming instantaneous life [one with the knowing]

there is only ONE of us here

REALITY is just THIS eternal self shining .. self evident display of .. IS-ness arising NOW .. [ONE without a second] ... perfect in every way .. INCLUDING the ripples
''WE'' BEARING WITNESS IS IT'S ONLY TESTIMONY


does anyone understand this?

mel.

[Fluent Piffle]

Further, all that can be said about reality in any concrete - spatiotemporal - terms is finite, and All is One is just as non-descriptive as all is none if the "One" cannot be clearly defined.

This is your belief, Nob. 'Infinite Space' is the clear definition, when combined with the correct physical understanding.

If we must ponder the existence of All as One, consider that because it exists everywhere it exists nowhere in particular.

You are just describing 'relativity' in your own words, Nob. And we cannot deny interconnection, or motion, otherwise we are back in the 'realm of the non-existent'. (A waste of valuable discussion time, if we are serious).

...it is all just a play, a game, the play of leela, illusion, dream,

Melanie, in the very Real world, it only takes a 'Hitler'-type mind to truly believe this stuff, and he justifies to himself any action he sees fit...Perhaps a young and comfortable mind is loathe to take this 'onboard'? This may not happen in the 'now', but over generations, 'beliefs' get manipulated into many forms, for personal gains, and also because it is all 'just a game'. There is a 'you' who keeps posting, but it is not about you, or what you, personally, consider the situation to be. It is potential influence for people who will justify their actions from any possible 'angle' they can get their hands on.



pif.

[melanie]

Melanie, in the very Real world, it only takes a 'Hitler'-type mind to truly believe this stuff, and he justifies to himself any action he sees fit...Perhaps a young and comfortable mind is loathe to take this 'onboard'? This may not happen in the 'now', but over generations, 'beliefs' get manipulated into many forms, for personal gains, and also because it is all 'just a game'. There is a 'you' who keeps posting, but it is not about you, or what you, personally, consider the situation to be. It is potential influence for people who will justify their actions from any possible 'angle' they can get their hands on. pif,

I couldn't agree with you more pif,

It is THE CONDITIONED nature of this apparent 'false entity' to be persistent in taking itself seriously,
and so the tendency is to favor evil over good for personal power and gain,
this is what the mind can do,
if 'we' apparent people are not mindful,
people are brainwashed and seduced by powerful people,forming herd like mentalities, people like to feel safe,
so the powerful people like 'Hitler' take advantage, and reduce others to their level,
this is how evil prevails, through ignorance of not knowing our divine nature, our higher selves are distorted by the ruling hierarchies who,
dupe us into thinking we are united when we are not.


POLITICS
Anybody who can be a good pretender, a hypocrite, will become your leader politically, will become your priest religiously.
All that he needs is cunningness, all that he needs is a facade to hide behind.
Your politicians live double lives, your priests live double lives one from the front door, the from the back door.
And the back-door life is their real life. Those front-door smiles are just false, those faces looking so innocent are just cultivated.
If you want to see the reality of the politician you will have to see him from his back door.
There he is in his nudity, as he is, and so it the priest. These two kinds of cunning people have dominated humanity.
And they found out very early on that if you want to dominate humanity, make it weak, make it feel guilty, make it feel unworthy.
Destroy its dignity, take all glory away from it, humiliate it.
And they have found such subtle ways of humiliation that they don't come in the picture at all,
they leave it to you to humiliate yourself, to destroy yourself.
They have taught you a kind of slow suicide.

This is all going on in the .. 'minds of man'
The true reality is .. it's not really happening at all except in their minds,
that is the nature of separateness / duality
a battle between good and evil,

IS nature at war with itself? ....Not really?
She is perfection everywhere you turn
and when she is out of balance she corrects herself because she is intelligent.

Why because NATURE is of no-mind.....it's just IS-NESS arising in this timeless beautiful awesome present NOW [presence]

WONDER-FUL

PS.... if man wants to blow himself up in a blaze of glory .. then who is there to stop him?
man will extinct himself maybe through sheer arrogance, stupidity and ignorance,
BUT! ! nature will continue on with or without man for all eternity,
so we could ask ourselves here ...WHO is intelligent?



mel.

[Fluent Piffle]

The 'Hitlers' of the world are not powerful. They must be agreed with, in order to have other peoples' power given to them...Thus, there is something within us all, that is capable of such agreement, and we give this agreement unthinkingly to those who are apparently 'with us'. In the case of our 'Hitler', he could not have done anything if he had not been born within an environment of latent Fascism, just waiting for him to manipulate to his will. All he needed to do was 'step it up a gear'...

POLITICS
Anybody who can be a good pretender, a hypocrite, will become your leader politically, will become your priest religiously.
All that he needs is cunningness, all that he needs is a facade to hide behind.

No, Melanie. All he needs is your consent, your agreement, your vote. Your willingness to be deceived.

...when she is out of balance she corrects herself because she is intelligent.

We are also parts of Nature, and we must now correct ourselves, use as much intelligence as we can currently gather...Declaring the extreme opposites of either ‘All is no-mind’, or ‘All is consciousness’, is not the Reality we exist in. Intelligence requires the use of whatever ‘tools’ you have, not those you simply wish were ‘true’.




pif.

[melanie]

Originally Posted by Fluent Piffle

The 'Hitlers' of the world are not powerful. They must be agreed with, in order to have other peoples' power given to them...Thus, there is something within us all, that is capable of such agreement, and we give this agreement unthinkingly to those who are apparently 'with us'. In the case of our 'Hitler', he could not have done anything if he had not been born within an environment of latent Fascism, just waiting for him to manipulate to his will. All he needed to do was 'step it up a gear'...



No, Melanie. All he needs is your consent, your agreement, your vote. Your willingness to be deceived.



pif.

Exactly my point....conditioning!!

all greed & vanity at the end of the day

does my cat worry about life? NO .. it just sez shut up and feed me

mel.

[melanie]

when she is out of balance she corrects herself because she is intelligent. melanie,

We are also parts of Nature, and we must now correct ourselves, use as much intelligence as we can currently gather...Declaring the extreme opposites of either ‘All is no-mind’, or ‘All is consciousness’, is not the Reality we exist in. Intelligence requires the use of whatever ‘tools’ you have, not those you simply wish were ‘true’. pif,

The mind is an aspect of consciousness, and yes it is to be used as a tool
for growth and learning, although 'we' do tend to believe the contents
of our mind a little too much.
We don't wish anything to be true....'we' know the truth already..

The problem is we like playing with our imaginary selves through fear or lack of love.
We hold on to stacks and stacks of negativity, poisoning our collective psyche, instead we should just let things go or be, like nature does.

We are not separate from nature, it is our layers and layers of conditioning of the human psyche that determines our paths in life.

We need to get out of old thinking habits and know that all is mental projection, and that there is only the NOW moment, where everything is being born a new,

When we live in our minds we are conditioned to believe in the current trend
instead of challenging these beliefs as to whether we actually agree with them or not.

As consumers we dictate and demand for more and more ..
every deed/action has a knock on effect so we follow a vicious circle a pattern of negative repetitiveness,
of want ,want want, need, need, need,
and yet really we don't want or need any of it.

Because nature takes care of everything if only we trust in that,
that's why i talk about going back to the roots of our original nature
the ancients knew how to live in harmony with nature.

Somehow mans brain got too big he grew into a monster.
We need to be gentle with ourselves.



mel.

[Fluent Piffle]

Yes, but my point was that we do it to ourselves, as we are all potential 'Hitlers'. People have no power over others, unless it is given to them.

My other point is that if we do not put greater awareness into everyday practice, there is no Real reason for its attainment.

We are not separate from nature..

I agree that is the Truth of it, but our particular 'problem' right now is that we have estranged ourselves, and we cannot just 'press a button' and 'be' at some utopian 'place' overnight. We have very Real 'problems' to fix, and it will take a process of recognition to achieve a 'cure'. Over-simplifying things into their 'good' and 'bad' apparent aspects and then just hand-picking the 'good', has never worked, because it is simply not the Reality of how things exist.




pif.

[melanie]

Yes, but my point was that we do it to ourselves, as we are all potential 'Hitlers'. People have no power over others, unless it is given to them.

Yes human psyche is a complete and utter mess 'we' have to unravel ourselves ..
we weave our webs of deceit so tightly around our necks we end up hanging our poor selves.
no-thing has any power what so ever.
Power is it's own Power driving itself [unknown power]

Nobody has power over you unless you allow them to have
so in reality power is another illusion.

We ARE only what we allow our selves to BE.

My other point is that if we do not put greater awareness into everyday practice, there is no Real reason for its attainment.

All we need to do is live in the now ... that's all there is.
Also to stop wishing things were different, we have to change
ourself first to change out there, because out there is our own
mental projection of it.

We are not separate from nature.. mel.

I agree that is the Truth of it, but our particular 'problem' right now is that we have estranged ourselves, and we cannot just 'press a button' and 'be' at some utopian 'place' overnight. We have very Real 'problems' to fix, and it will take a process of recognition to achieve a 'cure'. Over-simplifying things into their 'good' and 'bad' apparent aspects and then just hand-picking the 'good', has never worked, because it is simply not the Reality of how things exist. pif

Simple fact is pif, if everyone woke up over night,
all our problems would come to an end in an instant,
but really that's not ever going to happen,
for the ones that do wake up ... they are already in their heaven,
those people can retreat there basking in their own bliss and do nothing else,
or they can help their fellow men by doing something,
we can all wake up all at once if we want to,
but i think it's not that simple for the complicated man
he tends to like doing things the hard way for some absurd reason.
So one by one it will be done.
One at a time.

Doesn't really matter though .. because it's a long time in eternity

and the wheel keeps on turning, in eternity.

mel.

[N0B0DY]

Originally Posted by melanie

'we' are the perfect brilliant stillness in the movement, and vice versa...

This here hit three nails in one shot, Melanie. Can you elaborate on the stillness a bit. I think taking this into consideration will go a long way at defining what this thread is about - the synonymy of the TON/TOE, which when unified will set the absolute TONE of silence.

Originally Posted by Fluent Piffle

This is your belief, Nob. 'Infinite Space' is the clear definition, when combined with the correct physical understanding. You are just describing 'relativity' in your own words, Nob. And we cannot deny interconnection, or motion, otherwise we are back in the 'realm of the non-existent'. (A waste of valuable discussion time, if we are serious).

I am very serious, pif, but there is no need to waste your time if you feel my words are wasting it. Ironically, though, we can notice how we influence each other by paying attention to how people change their wording in their messages throughout this site. Many folks underestimate how much psychology influences their beliefs.

There can be no such "realm of the non-existent," which is the point of this thread as per the claim of the impossibility of such a realm. If you are serious in discussing and unifying philosophies, you will notice that I repeatedly proclaim nothing does not exist as a First-Philosophy basis for such a discussion. There are many interpretations, believe it or not, based on the existence of nothing. So at least in this respect we are in agreement.

As a starting point, perhaps you can detail spatiotemporal existence if all things are connected as one. Then, perhaps you will realize what happens to the concreteness of such things as a result of literalistic views; and in this light we can then attempt a serious discussion that will lead towards merging Newton's absolute spacetime with Einstein's relative spacetime, in order to posit the basis for understanding what all the talk about illusion is because it - illusion - has a tendency to be taken out of context by many folks by not following the implications properly which renders a particular rendition that conveys how the one and many are only the correct view if the many from the one is ordered in the proper fashion.

Just a final point on Einstein's Relativity, which I notice people having a field day with, it is based on everything being relative to "c" (Celeritas - Speed) - which I propose is consistent and supportive of my interpretation of existence being velocity-dependent. I can't recall if you touched upon this basis or not previously, but maybe you can do so because it can serve to shed light on other considerations as well. So making note of our stances, perhaps we can extend this basic point to consider how any spatiotemporal existence must be based on illusory (in the time-dependent sense) factors because I propose time is the sole governing factor in determining any and all senses of reality and consciousness.

Thanks for the time by the way.