[not2too]

Originally Posted by everymansmedium

All things would be predetermined if we had access to all of the variables, but we don’t. Think about how unlikely this predetermination is. As soon as one change or mistake is made, all predetermination is GONE.
John.

All of the variables exert the same effect regardless of whether we have access to them or not. "Your" awareness of a variable, followed by "your changing" it is, itself, set up by another set of variables. Its variables all the way down...and you are one of them. "You"...and "I"...are a verb and an illusion...a process...not a doer...

To paraphrase a Zen saying quoted recently on this site by Melanie, I think:
"With understanding, things are just as they are. Without understanding, things are just as they are."

Best,
not2too

[N0B0DY]

I think that is true, not2too. Things are the way the are, but until they are different at which time things will be they way they will be. If you're familiar with the tetragrammaton, for millennia it may as well be referred to as the nameless tao because there is no clear definition of it. It can be present or future tense, to represent what things are and their potential.

As individuals, I agree with you John that mistakes can be made, and individuals can't change past mistakes. Yet, the universe, unlike individuals, doesn't make mistakes because it has the capacity to perfect itself in no time. A perfection which is naturally unfathomable from the partial perspective of imperfect individuals. So I think it comes down to mistakes being made as a byproduct of perfection, leading to imperfect people attempting to perfect perfection.

[not2too]

Originally Posted by N0B0DY

As individuals, I agree with you John that mistakes can be made, and individuals can't change past mistakes. Yet, the universe, unlike individuals, doesn't make mistakes because it has the capacity to perfect itself in no time. A perfection which is naturally unfathomable from the partial perspective of imperfect individuals. So I think it comes down to mistakes being made as a byproduct of perfection, leading to imperfect people attempting to perfect perfection.

If the universe doesn't make mistakes, how can individuals, who cannot step back and act apart from the universe "make mistakes". (Or, if they can, how does this occur?) If the universe conspires in every act and there is no individual "doer", then who is there (the illusory individual ego?) to "make a mistake". What is the definition of an individual (or universal) "mistake" anyway?

Best,
not2too

[everymansmedium]

Originally Posted by not2too

All of the variables exert the same effect regardless of whether we have access to them or not. "Your" awareness of a variable, followed by "your changing" it is, itself, set up by another set of variables. Its variables all the way down...and you are one of them. "You"...and "I"...are a verb and an illusion...a process...not a doer...

To paraphrase a Zen saying quoted recently on this site by Melanie, I think:
"With understanding, things are just as they are. Without understanding, things are just as they are."

Best,
not2too

Hello Not2too:
Everybody is entitled to there own opinion. It should be noted that this issue is debatable.
In the theory of determinism a force can be considered as a prime cause.
A lightning bolt is a good simple example of a force and the energy that is a result.
Before a lighting bolt happens there is the imbalance in the placement of charged particles. This is potential energy (EMF). This is doing nothing and is undetectable until it releases the energy that can be detected. Even the measurement by laboratory instruments requires that a bit of energy is released. It is only the energy that is detected. The force itself is undetectable. The determination of a force has 2 criteria.
#1: It must be apparent………..It must have some effect on the environment that is detectable.
#2: It must be constant……….It must have the same effect, relative to the medium, every time.
These are the 2 criteria to determine the existence of a force (prime cause).

Now compare those 2 ideas to the idea of a being.
#1: is a being apparent. Awareness of self is the prime requisite. Is not awareness of self the same as apparent.
#2: Is a being the result of a constant. The prime will is to survive/continue The directive of extending existence into time is indeed a constant that is shared by all being and life itself. The determination of continue as a constant is the issue that is debatable. I would be glad to debate it if you wish.

I see being as a prime cause it even fits the criteria of a force. I understand you will not find this type of thought inside of the capital education systems because they would do almost anything to avoid this thought as it will effect there intake of funding. I think we discussed this once before in a thread about brain washing.
John

[everymansmedium]

Originally Posted by N0B0DY

As individuals, I agree with you John that mistakes can be made, and individuals can't change past mistakes. Yet, the universe, unlike individuals, doesn't make mistakes because it has the capacity to perfect itself in no time. A perfection which is naturally unfathomable from the partial perspective of imperfect individuals. So I think it comes down to mistakes being made as a byproduct of perfection, leading to imperfect people attempting to perfect perfection.

Hi Nobody:
Not to perfect perfection but to partake in the perfection that is the learning process. The continuous increase in knowledge and understanding by all is the perfection. The never ending improvement. Stagnation and predetermination could not be perfection. perfection must move as life moves. It must change as life changes. for it is in life that there is perfection.

My thought is that if there is anything in the universe including man that is not perfect, then there is no predetermination, at least not during the learning process of mankind that is presently underway. If we were also perfect we would not need to learn we would already know. I do feel that the universe does strive toward perfection and the information to attain perfection is somewhere available to us. It time maybe we will attain perfection at that time everything in the universe will be perfect. But then again maybe at that time, it will be time for another form of life to follow the road that mankind took toward perfection. Are we so sure that we know what this universe has in store for us and for that matter any and all other forms of life. I see continue/life as the prime reason for the existence of this universe. Then maybe a continuous stream of learning by one form of life after the other is the perfection. In this case it is the striving for perfection that truly is the perfection.
John.

[not2too]

Originally Posted by everymansmedium

Hello Not2too:
Everybody is entitled to there own opinion. It should be noted that this issue is debatable.
In the theory of determinism a force can be considered as a prime cause.
A lightning bolt is a good simple example of a force and the energy that is a result.
Before a lighting bolt happens there is the imbalance in the placement of charged particles. This is potential energy (EMF). This is doing nothing and is undetectable until it releases the energy that can be detected. Even the measurement by laboratory instruments requires that a bit of energy is released. It is only the energy that is detected. The force itself is undetectable. The determination of a force has 2 criteria.
#1: It must be apparent………..It must have some effect on the environment that is detectable.
#2: It must be constant……….It must have the same effect, relative to the medium, every time.
These are the 2 criteria to determine the existence of a force (prime cause).

Now compare those 2 ideas to the idea of a being.
#1: is a being apparent. Awareness of self is the prime requisite. Is not awareness of self the same as apparent.
#2: Is a being the result of a constant. The prime will is to survive/continue The directive of extending existence into time is indeed a constant that is shared by all being and life itself. The determination of continue as a constant is the issue that is debatable. I would be glad to debate it if you wish.

I see being as a prime cause it even fits the criteria of a force. I understand you will not find this type of thought inside of the capital education systems because they would do almost anything to avoid this thought as it will effect there intake of funding. I think we discussed this once before in a thread about brain washing.
John

Hello John,
As far as the discussion about brain washing is concerned, I think you have me confused with someone else.
As far as the present discussion is concerned, I have a couple of questions concerning your comparison of a lightning bolt and a self aware being. The point that you are trying to make is that they are both prime causes, with the self aware being possessing a "prime will to survive/continue". How does this relate to the idea of human free will as it is commonly used? What type of freedom adheres to a prime cause?

Best,
not2too

[everymansmedium]

Originally Posted by not2too

Hello John,
As far as the discussion about brain washing is concerned, I think you have me confused with someone else.
As far as the present discussion is concerned, I have a couple of questions concerning your comparison of a lightning bolt and a self aware being. The point that you are trying to make is that they are both prime causes, with the self aware being possessing a "prime will to survive/continue". How does this relate to the idea of human free will as it is commonly used? What type of freedom adheres to a prime cause?

Best,
not2too

Hello Not2too:
I see free will as the freedom to calculate how best to achieve longevity.

Here is a look at how I see the problem.

Human motivation = HM
The direct effect of the constant continue = Cont
Environment variable = Env
Genetic memory variable = Mem-Gen
Character memory variable = Mem-Char
Feedback effect of the constant continue = FB-Cont

FB-Cont = Cont times The amount of effect of the constant continue that is existing on all other variables at the present time.

HM = (Env + Mem-Gen + Mem-Char + FB-Cont)

As you can see by the feedback system that the effect of the constant continue could be very small at first but in time it will displace all other forces. It has already done this. If you open your eyes and look over our planet. Everything that you see is effected by life, then effected by Cont,

If you are in a city every road and building is the result of mans effort = effect of life = effect of Cont.
If you are in the forest can you see anything that is not the result of life. Then all is Cont. even the color of the sky during the day is because of life. The only thing that we can see that is not the effect of Cont is the night sky. We are getting ready to go after that too.
John.

[not2too]

Originally Posted by everymansmedium

As you can see by the feedback system that the effect of the constant continue could be very small at first but in time it will displace all other forces. It has already done this. If you open your eyes and look over our planet. Everything that you see is effected by life, then effected by Cont,

If you are in a city every road and building is the result of mans effort = effect of life = effect of Cont.
If you are in the forest can you see anything that is not the result of life. Then all is Cont. even the color of the sky during the day is because of life. The only thing that we can see that is not the effect of Cont is the night sky. We are getting ready to go after that too.
John.

Where is consciousness in the equation? Could you not make the same statements if consciousness did not exist?

Best,
not2too

[N0B0DY]

My reference was to the illusory individual, not2too. Thank you for the clarfication, and excellent assessment of this simple holistic theory.

We each have our own understanding based on experiences that can't properly be conveyed and spoken about, but essentially the unconscious gateway I referred to is the means to merging the experiences; subconsciousness, or however you wish to define sublevel governance, provides the means of breaking absolute symmetry and is impossible to transcend the ego "tapping" into the source that creates the ego. Time travel, as impossible as it seems, is key to forgetting about the self in a similar fashion to forgetting yourself s a baby. Maybe folks just have to mature in order to understand nature.

I think you bring up a good point, John, about perfection and potential. I think if we think in terms of potential, infinite potential, and highest potential, and we correlate these to the quantitative scales of energy, mass and their proper configuration as they relate to consciousness and knowledge, making the same mistakes over and over would seem a requisite of attaining perfection.

It's sort of like the "eternal return" vs the last ill effect as the first cause of proper action. When we repeatedly ask and experience the what the highest-possible attainment is, there is no need to return any more. The gateway is the direct means of getting to point B without the need for propagation; in summary, like this theory implies, it is from absolute fullness that events and qualities are extracted and formed consciously as time (identical to space in my personal opinion).

There is no need to move or grow or learn because everything is already finished, and longevity is already the never-ending reality as a photosynthetic manipulation - fully-controlled and understood. Not like the gleam thought to be the be-all-end-all of the universe.

Thank you for all of your great contributions.

[not2too]

Originally Posted by N0B0DY

Time travel, as impossible as it seems, is key to forgetting about the self in a similar fashion to forgetting yourself s a baby. Maybe folks just have to mature in order to understand nature...

...in summary, like this theory implies, it is from absolute fullness that events and qualities are extracted and formed consciously as time (identical to space in my personal opinion)...

...There is no need to move or grow or learn because everything is already finished, and longevity is already the never-ending reality as a photosynthetic manipulation - fully-controlled and understood. Not like the gleam thought to be the be-all-end-all of the universe.

Forgive my excerpting NOBODY, but I think the result is a beautiful statement of JUST THIS...

Best,
not2too