[Drifter]

Forgiven
Grace is the kindness and favor of God extended to you. It is nothing you can earn or deserve. Grace is God saying to you, You can do nothing to save yourself; there is no need to even try because I have done it all.
I have given My Son to die for you and He has made the perfect sacrifice for your sin.
Come and receive My free gift.



http://www.templeofthepresence.org/portrait.htm

For those already enlightened souls, they may forego the message and get straight to the point.

To wit: The Principle of Oneness is the Liberation and Salvation from Eternal suffering.

Without Celestial Love this life, is as a bird with broken wings.

Originally Posted by melanie within the hustle and the bustle of the kaleidoscope of life when you've gotten the message ..... hang up the phone because the 'you' that you thought was 'you' .... disappears!! and then there is a surrendering to a sweet serene silence within the kaleidoscope of hustle and bustle. melanie.

[N0B0DY]

Originally Posted by Drifter Timeless and Eternal are synonymous: TIMELESS; adj. Independent of time; eternal. Unaffected by time; ageless. See synonyms at ageless. Archaic. Untimely or premature. timelessly time'less·ly adv. timelessness time'less·ness n.

Nice to see you back and well-rested, Drifter, and right on time.

Yet, since my theory is based on time, I would have to argue that there is a difference between the consensus interpretation and my own.

Timelessness (the absolute) is correlated with unconsciousness and is without differentiation, and apparently without time; whereas eternity implies the continuation of differentiable increments of time without end, and is correlated with subconsciousness; and finitude, as it applies to finite time and space, correlated with consciousness.

[Drifter]

Thank you Nobody, it is nice to be back too.

I relate all forms of consciousness with the finite. Unconsciousness is another differentiation of Consciousness as is sub-consciousness.
They are co-related to Awareness but they are not Awareness, Awareness stands alone and Supreme. Timelessness is devoid of time altogether. . . as is Eternity, eternity is just a word, and nothing more, it merely discribes or points too the state of nothingness. Consiousness is on contact with the finite[nature].
Continuation presuposes movement and the "Absolute" is absolute stillness, devoid of motion, content and/or any and all supposed continuation, and totally devoid of any and all attributes of time, it is attributeless. Perfect Brilliant Stillness. Yet it contains all that[attributes] within itself.
Eternity doesn't imply, relative consciousness[the thinking mechanism] implies, we have to go beyond all implications, into the abyss, the void, totally. No relativity. Nothingness.
Any and all movement is consequentially away from . . . .or out of . . . That.
Therefore it is said: In this world but not of it.

kudos
brother, self, One.

Originally Posted by N0B0DY Nice to see you back and well-rested, Drifter, and right on time. Yet, since my theory is based on time, I would have to argue that there is a difference between the consensus interpretation and my own. Timelessness (the absolute) is correlated with unconsciousness and is without differentiation, and apparently without time; whereas eternity implies the continuation of differentiable increments of time without end, and is correlated with subconsciousness; and finitude, as it applies to finite time and space, correlated with consciousness.

[Drifter]

Here we eat, survive, and procreate, and sometimes we give thanks.
There, is no need for such earthly things, and there are none.

For those who do not even hear the music
["Oh harbinger of Death, wherefore now art thy sting"]
eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die.

Death is the final sin that man must conquer.

[N0B0DY]

Originally Posted by Drifter Thank you Nobody, it is nice to be back too. I relate all forms of consciousness with the finite. Unconsciousness is another differentiation of Consciousness as is sub-consciousness. They are co-related to Awareness but they are not Awareness, Awareness stands alone and Supreme. Timelessness is devoid of time altogether. . . as is Eternity, eternity is just a word, and nothing more, it merely discribes or points too the state of nothingness. Consiousness is on contact with the finite[nature]. Continuation presuposes movement and the "Absolute" is absolute stillness, devoid of motion, content and/or any and all supposed continuation, and totally devoid of any and all attributes of time, it is attributeless. Perfect Brilliant Stillness. Yet it contains all that[attributes] within itself. Eternity doesn't imply, relative consciousness[the thinking mechanism] implies, we have to go beyond all implications, into the abyss, the void, totally. No relativity. Nothingness. Any and all movement is consequentially away from . . . .or out of . . . That. Therefore it is said: In this world but not of it. kudos brother, self, One.

True, but awareness (which I propose is synonymous to consciousness) is time-dependent. There can be absolute unconsciousness, but not absolute consciousness or awareness.

Varying forms and degrees of awareness or consciousness can be differentiated from one another, as can consciousness and unconsciousness; but unconsciousness in and of itself cannot exist as a state of awareness. Therefore all forms of consciousness or awareness must be relative; subconsciousness is the extended deduction of the above awareness; but unconsciousness is the only possible absolute, which is why I proclaim absolutes cannot exist.

[Drifter]

Originally Posted by N0B0DY True, but awareness (which I propose is synonymous to consciousness) is time-dependent. There can be absolute unconsciousness, but not absolute consciousness or awareness. Varying forms and degrees of awareness or consciousness can be differentiated from one another, as can consciousness and unconsciousness; but unconsciousness in and of itself cannot exist as a state of awareness. Therefore all forms of consciousness or awareness must be relative; subconsciousness is the extended deduction of the above awareness; but unconsciousness is the only possible absolute, which is why I proclaim absolutes cannot exist.

Unconsciousness vs. Consciousness vs. Awarness...What It All Means:

"You can be aware of a sound but not be aware of what is producing the sound. In other words you can be aware of something but not know what that something is. What is that I hear...is an example of this idea. A person can therefore be aware of something but not be aware that they are aware of that something. Another example is that a child can be aware that they hear barking but they are not aware that it is from a dog but they do recognize it as a distinct sound. The idea of awareness and consciousness is one that is very complicated because it has been manipulated in a way that makes consciousness an aspect of awareness and awareness being on a higher level."


http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro06/web3/sncha.html

[Drifter]

The mind [the thinking mechanism] loves to complicate things. That's why it is said that the answer . . . is not in the mind. Therefore there will never be a final "theory of everything" or final "theory of nothing" because all theory is nothing more than conjecture alluded to with more or less different words expressing as the inexpressable, the ineffable.
Words cannot contain it, yet It contains all words.
They can only by some margin of success or failure point to it, it is an effort in futility, but we love to try.
The only way to know it is to relax into it, losing ones self in it, leaving all else behind and becomming one with it, leaving all else behind, even words.

Leave all your baggage outside the door, even the thought of a self, and enter.

There's a Buddhists parable about the disciple finding the door of the Buddha and knocked; "Who's There?" came from inside. "It' is 'Me'", said the Disciple. "There is no room in here for two", came the reply. The Disciple knocked again. "Who is There?" came from inside. "It is 'I' Master", said the Disciple. "There is no room in here for two" came the reply. The Disciple knocked again for the third time. "Who is it?" came from inside. "It is Thee" said the Disciple; "Leave your baggage outside the door and enter". And the Disciple was instantly Enlightened.

[melanie]

Originally Posted by Drifter The mind [the thinking mechanism] loves to complicate things. That's why it is said that the answer . . . is not in the mind. Therefore there will never be a final "theory of everything" or final "theory of nothing" because all theory is nothing more than conjecture alluded to with more or less different words expressing as the inexpressable, the ineffable. Words cannot contain it, yet It contains all words. They can only by some margin of success or failure point to it, it is an effort in futility, but we love to try. The only way to know it is to relax into it, losing ones self in it, leaving all else behind and becomming one with it, leaving all else behind, even words. Leave all your baggage outside the door, even the thought of a self, and enter. There's a Buddhists parable about the disciple finding the door of the Buddha and knocked; "Who's There?" came from inside. "It' is 'Me'", said the Disciple. "There is no room in here for two", came the reply. The Disciple knocked again. "Who is There?" came from inside. "It is 'I' Master", said the Disciple. "There is no room in here for two" came the reply. The Disciple knocked again for the third time. "Who is it?" came from inside. "It is Thee" said the Disciple; "Leave your baggage outside the door and enter". And the Disciple was instantly Enlightened.

WELL SAID DRIFTER

ALSO
Trying to describe emptiness by filling it up with words,
or silence by talking about it, is a catch twenty two


Every-thing including words and concepts are a mental construct
there is only consciousness.
All appearances are IN consciousness including concepts and words.
Consciousness itself is represented here with words and concepts
yet fully being each word and concept and not separate from
as NO-thing and no- separation consciousness IS
Now in a moment of silence without thoughts or story where then are things, words and concepts?
Without the chatter of the mind, what can i declare a .. thing or a concept ..
only then .. in concord with sensation sensed do words and concepts appear in this dance from silent awareness to conscious appearance

melanie.

[Drifter]

Ahh . . . two hearts vibrating as one Mel.

The Night Blooming Jasmine has an affinity for Darkness.

The Rose has an affinity for the Sun.

Both could be said to have awareness but consciousness [a/the thinking mechanism] does not kick in and begin labelling things.

All things in nature possess awareness- which is our basic essential non-reduceable element- in varying degrees and do quite nicely without a "thinking mechanism" to start identifying things.

Water Buffalo have an inherent sense of being up to their ass in alligators when crossing an enfested river and when one get caught . . . the others don't come rushing to it's aid or gather on the shore to mourn the loss.

It all just happens, it's life.

Thus shall ye think of this fleeting world:

A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream;
A flash of lighting in a summer cloud;
A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream.

-Diamond Sutra

Sow a thought and you reap an act; Sow an act and you reap a habit; Sow a habit and you reap a character; Sow a character and you reap a destiny.


- Samuel Smiles

One Taste, The Journals of Ken Wilber
"So Who Are You?"
The witnessing of awareness can persist through waking, dreaming and deep sleep. The Witness is fully available in any state, including your own present state of awareness right now. So I'm going to talk you into this state, or try to, using what are known in Buddhism as "pointing out instructions." I am not going to try to get you into a different state of consciousness, or an altered state of consciousness, or a non-ordinary state. I am going to simply point out something that is already occurring in your own present, ordinary, natural state.
So let's start by just being aware of the world around us. Look out there at the sky, and just relax your mind; let your mind and the sky mingle. Notice the clouds floating by. Notice that this takes no effort on your part. Your present awareness, in which these clouds are floating, is very simple, very easy, effortless, spontaneous. You simply notice that there is an effortless awareness of the clouds. The same is true of those trees, and those birds, and those rocks. You simply and effortlessly witness them.
Look now at the sensations in your own body. You can be aware of whatever bodily feelings are present-perhaps pressure where you are sitting, perhaps warmth in your tummy, maybe tightness in your neck. But even if these feelings are tight and tense, you can easily be aware of them. These feelings arise in your present awareness, and that awareness is very simple, easy, effortless, spontaneous. You simply and effortlessly witness them.
Look at the thoughts arising in your mind. You might notice various images, symbols, concepts, desires, hopes and fears, all spontaneously arising in your awareness. They arise, stay a bit, and pass. These thoughts and feelings arise in your present awareness, and that awareness is very simple, effortless, spontaneous. You simply and effortlessly witness them.
So notice: you can see the clouds float by because you are not those clouds-you are the witness of those clouds. You can feel bodily feelings because you are not those feelings-you are the witness of those feelings. You can see thoughts float by because you are not those thoughts-you are the witness of those thoughts. Spontaneously and naturally, these things all arise, on their own, in your present, effortless awareness.
So who are you? You are not objects out there, you are not feelings, you are not thoughts-you are effortlessly aware of all those, so you are not those. Who or what are you?
Say it this way to yourself: I have feelings, but I am not those feelings. Who am I? I have thoughts, but I am not those thoughts. Who am I? I have desires, but I am not those desires. Who am I?
So you push back into the source of your own awareness. You push back into the Witness, and you rest in the Witness. I am not objects, not feelings, not desires, not thoughts.
But then people usually make a big mistake. They think that if they rest in the Witness, they are going to see something or feel something-something really neat and special. But you won't see anything. If you see something, that is just another object-another feeling, another thought, another sensation, another image. But those are all objects; those are what you are not.
No, as you rest in the Witness-realizing, I am not objects, I am not feelings, I am not thoughts-all you will notice is a sense of freedom, a sense of liberation, a sense of release-release from the terrible constriction of identifying with these puny little finite objects, your little body and little mind and little ego, all of which are objects that can be seen, and thus are not the true Seer, the real Self, the pure Witness, which is what you really are.
So you won't see anything in particular. Whatever is arising is fine. Clouds float by in the sky, feelings float by in the body, thoughts float by in the mind-and you can effortlessly witness all of them. They all spontaneously arise in your own present, easy, effortless awareness. And this witnessing awareness is not itself anything specific you can see. It is just a vast, background sense of freedom-or pure emptiness-and in that pure emptiness, which you are, the entire manifest world arises. You are that freedom, openness, emptiness-and not any itty bitty thing that arises in it.
Resting in that empty, free, easy, effortless witnessing, notice that the clouds are arising in the vast space of your awareness. The clouds are arising within you-so much so, you can taste the clouds, you are one with the clouds. It is as if they are on this side of your skin, they are so close. The sky and your awareness have become one, and all things in the sky are floating effortlessly through your own awareness. You can kiss the sun, swallow the mountain, they are that close. Zen says "Swallow the Pacific Ocean in a single gulp," and that's the easiest thing in the world, when inside and outside are no longer two, when subject and object are nondual, when the looker and looked at are One Taste. You see?
© 1999 Ken Wilber


Seeing, smelling, hearing, tasteing and feeling all hapen in awareness but it's the consciousness of the thinking mechanism that labels those as things.

Love Ya

Originally Posted by melanie WELL SAID DRIFTER ALSO Trying to describe emptiness by filling it up with words, or silence by talking about it, is a catch twenty two Every-thing including words and concepts are a mental construct there is only consciousness. All appearances are IN consciousness including concepts and words. Consciousness itself is represented here with words and concepts yet fully being each word and concept and not separate from as NO-thing and no- separation consciousness IS Now in a moment of silence without thoughts or story where then are things, words and concepts? Without the chatter of the mind, what can i declare a .. thing or a concept .. only then .. in concord with sensation sensed do words and concepts appear in this dance from silent awareness to conscious appearance melanie.

[Drifter]

Lao Tzu said, "The Tao that can be spoken is not the Tao"; then he wrote a 3500 words discourse on the Tao and called it The I Ching.

Originally Posted by melanie WELL SAID DRIFTER ALSO Trying to describe emptiness by filling it up with words, or silence by talking about it, is a catch twenty two Every-thing including words and concepts are a mental construct there is only consciousness. All appearances are IN consciousness including concepts and words. Consciousness itself is represented here with words and concepts yet fully being each word and concept and not separate from as NO-thing and no- separation consciousness IS Now in a moment of silence without thoughts or story where then are things, words and concepts? Without the chatter of the mind, what can i declare a .. thing or a concept .. only then .. in concord with sensation sensed do words and concepts appear in this dance from silent awareness to conscious appearance melanie.